Forestay has 7 broken strands!

[groundtackle]

"There is no acceptable amount of broken strands"
ce

[AndyEss]

If 7 strands are broken in 1/19 wire, you have lost 37% at a minimum of the cable’s strength. Your photo shows the remaining strands don’t appear to be in the best condition - as expected from such a concentrated failure.
Also - look how far the broken strands have separated from their other ends (embedded in the swaged fitting). The remaining somewhat intact strands have deformed (stretched) elastically and possibly plastically (very bad) to accommodate the greatly decreased cross-sectional area of the stay.
Your halyards are going to be far more compliant (stretchy) than the 1/19 cable.
You dodged a bullet - replace that stay ASAP, it is holding by habit, not design.

[Pizzazz]

If I were in your position I would do the StaLock temporary fix (should not be that hard, loosen the rig, use a halyard to relieve the forestay, cut the stay, install the StaLock). You can probably do it in under two hours.

If you want to be more adventurous, once you secure the mast with the halyards you may tension the forestry a bit to see if it will break. Say go from 20% of breaking strength to 35-40% than back off. Nothing worse than what you already have should happen. You will not learn much either but it is an experiment I would be tempted to do.

Now you made me curious to go up my mast to see how bad it is. You may have been sailing like this for a long time.

[clakiep]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We’re preparing to replace our standing rigging in April - it’s 10 years old (last replaced May 2010) and 1x19 wire. Last full rig inspection was June 2018 and all was good. Visual inspection last October before our return to NZ from Tonga and all looked fine.

Just went up the mast to measure the fittings for the shrouds and running backstays as we want to rerig with Dyneema. Checked the forestay and see that 7 of the outer strands are broken right where the wire enters the swage!

Attachment 209262

Holy cow poop! So, a few questions.

1/ Is this rig still safe to sail in light to moderate coastal conditions?
2/ What could have caused the broken wires?

I’m not sure that we can bring forward our rerig, so what are our options for sailing in the next two months?

At least the mast hasn’t collapsed (yet) and we haven’t had to test our insurance coverage, especially given the conditions we had on our return passage from Tonga. Maybe the rig pumping in the breaking waves that broke our running backstay fittings also caused the forestay strands to break?

Sigh.

If You have a spare halliot - spinnaker or jib - You can set as back up, and sail avoiding to much tension on the forestay - headsail sheeted tight in strong wind close hauled - do so and good luck.

[Paul L]

It would be very interesting to see a picture of the masthead and toggle setup that resulted in this. I bought an older boat with a rig that was short one forestay masthead toggle. It had cracked the masthead.

You didn't mention how far you need to travel or what the seastate is likely to be to get to the riggers for your planned refit. If it was me and the distance was reasonable, I would just motor it.

[fxykty]

Here’s a photo that shows the top of the forestay. (I took the photo to show the upper terminations of the shroud and running backstay as we plan to replace them with Colligo Cheeky Tangs and DUX.) There is one toggle at the top of the forestay to allow for side to side movement and fore and aft on the pin to the fitting.

Can’t tell whether the wire is 304 or 316. There is a fair bit of corrosion, but I certainly don’t know enough to distinguish them. Certainly should have been 316 if it isn’t.

After speaking to a few riggers this morning (we’re going to rerig locally and as soon as possible, so only short local movements needed) I’m leaning to replacing the forestay with rod. I’ve been told that wire with swage fittings has a life of about 15,000-25,000 nautical miles and 7-20 years, while rod terminal fittings are good for 40,000-60,000 miles or 6 years and the rod itself 120,000 miles (no time limit). Haven’t checked price yet. Maybe Dyform will just have to do. We could go up a size too but I’m not sure how well that will play with the beam and mast termination fittings and the ProFurl furler and foil.

The boat has come from France on the current rig, including several trips back and forth and among the South Pacific islands and NZ, about 30,000 nautical miles. So, maybe that’s the wire due, regardless of the 10 year insurance company limit. Maybe that’s based on average boat usage?

Boats are so much fun with all the systems that one ignores bar basic maintenance until they go wrong and then you get insight into yet another brand new world of stuff.

[roverhi]

The above video is definitely worth a look, in fact a must look. Picked up at least three things I didn't know and will go down to the boat and check before I go out again. The wire clamp emergency repair is something I never would have thought of.

[Boatguy30]

Replace with the long sta Lok eye, made specifically for this situation.

[flyingnut40]

Originally Posted by roverhi

The above video is definitely worth a look, in fact a must look. Picked up at least three things I didn't know and will go down to the boat and check before I go out again. The wire clamp emergency repair is something I never would have thought of.

Glad it was useful to at least ONE other..... smile

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Here’s a photo that shows the top of the forestay. (I took the photo to show the upper terminations of the shroud and running backstay as we plan to replace them with Colligo Cheeky Tangs and DUX.) There is one toggle at the top of the forestay to allow for side to side movement and fore and aft on the pin to the fitting. Attachment 209309

Can’t tell whether the wire is 304 or 316. There is a fair bit of corrosion, but I certainly don’t know enough to distinguish them. Certainly should have been 316 if it isn’t.

After speaking to a few riggers this morning (we’re going to rerig locally and as soon as possible, so only short local movements needed) I’m leaning to replacing the forestay with rod. I’ve been told that wire with swage fittings has a life of about 15,000-25,000 nautical miles and 7-20 years, while rod terminal fittings are good for 40,000-60,000 miles or 6 years and the rod itself 120,000 miles (no time limit). Haven’t checked price yet. Maybe Dyform will just have to do. We could go up a size too but I’m not sure how well that will play with the beam and mast termination fittings and the ProFurl furler and foil.

The boat has come from France on the current rig, including several trips back and forth and among the South Pacific islands and NZ, about 30,000 nautical miles. So, maybe that’s the wire due, regardless of the 10 year insurance company limit. Maybe that’s based on average boat usage?

Boats are so much fun with all the systems that one ignores bar basic maintenance until they go wrong and then you get insight into yet another brand new world of stuff.

Is there enough room for the fore aft movement with the athwart ship movement toggle in there? It looks tight.

One issue with rod is that there are few places where you can get it headed and it is difficult to ship. So as you move on to more remote areas it might be hard to make the next place.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Replace with the long sta Lok eye, made specifically for this situation.

Boatguy:

Can you point to where Stalock ACTUALLY recommends using their long eye fitting "specifically for" the case of extending a wire has failed at a swage? I might be wrong, but I have never seen that as a recommended use for this fitting, much less its "specific use."

This fitting is used for fixing some types of length problems, but NOT where the wire has already failed! As people have already pointed out in this thread the inner strands of this wire have already be stretched and exposed to loads higher than design and can not be trusted to be as strong as they used to be.

The shroud should be condemned. Period.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by billknny

Boatguy:

Can you point to where Stalock ACTUALLY recommends using their long eye fitting "specifically for" the case of extending a wire has failed at a swage? I might be wrong, but I have never seen that as a recommended use for this fitting, much less its "specific use."

This fitting is used for fixing some types of length problems, but NOT where the wire has already failed! As people have already pointed out in this thread the inner strands of this wire have already be stretched and exposed to loads higher than design and can not be trusted to be as strong as they used to be.

The shroud should be condemned. Period.

The wire is breaking because of fatigue not because it has been loaded in excess of it's yield point. Consequently removing the fatigued part and re-rigging the wire with a Staylok will bring that end of the wire back to near new condition. Because the fatigue occurs at a stress riser the individual wires only centimeters away will be relatively free of fatigue.

There is a stress threshold in steel below which fatigue does not occur and most yacht rigging spends most of it's life below this threshold. Stress risers concentrate the stresses in the metal around a small point and these areas are consequently much more liable to fatigue cracking and failure.

If you test loaded the Staylok repaired shroud to yield you would more likely break the other roll formed end before the Staylok end failed.

You cannot crush a multi strand wire into a smaller diameter, solid bar without creating a stress riser, With stainless' propensity to work hardening and fatigue failure the failure probability is designed into the roll formed fittings.

[Thumbs Up]

Can you point to where Stalock ACTUALLY recommends using their long eye fitting "specifically for" the case of extending a wire has failed at a swage?

I can:https://www.stalok.com/product/sta-lok-long-eye-inch
from that Stalok link:
Description
Additional length of Long Eye allows replacement of damaged and unseaworthy fittings
Save on having to replace wire rope.
Provides instant repair anywhere.
Quick and easy to install. Only basic hand tools required.
High strength 316 Stainless steel. Rust Free.
For right hand and left hand lay wire rope.
Packed for 1x19 wire as standard.
Different wedges are available to terminate 7 strand and compacted wire ropes.
Wire sizes 3/16” to 1/2" .

[Michael Pope]

Hello Hello is any one awake up there.

Who knows what the life of 1X9 swaged rigging in 316 really knows that is

Easy Answer THE INSURANCE COMPANIES I lived for years in Hawaii and delivered yachts from and to the islands. 1X 19 316ss swaged wire was fine as long as it was no more than 24 months old. OR no insurance if you were going back to the states or Canada.
Same company for a boat that lived in British Columbia (colder weather) lower average wind 12 years if no discolour or rust. To Hawaii OK but change it in 12 months. .

I finally got the message after I had two failures in clean looking wire where I had inspected the rig and die tested all the fittings . Iask the local marine insurers now to write a letter to their customer . Otherwise the owner figures I am just makeing work and screwing him!!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Michael Pope

Hello Hello is any one awake up there.



Who knows what the life of 1X9 swaged rigging in 316 really knows that is



Easy Answer THE INSURANCE COMPANIES I lived for years in Hawaii and delivered yachts from and to the islands. 1X 19 316ss swaged wire was fine as long as it was no more than 24 months old. OR no insurance if you were going back to the states or Canada.

Same company for a boat that lived in British Columbia (colder weather) lower average wind 12 years if no discolour or rust. To Hawaii OK but change it in 12 months. .



I finally got the message after I had two failures in clean looking wire where I had inspected the rig and die tested all the fittings . Iask the local marine insurers now to write a letter to their customer . Otherwise the owner figures I am just makeing work and screwing him!!

Interesting. Our insurance company is UK-based, underwritten by Lloyd’s, and is applying a personalised global cover policy to us that is specifically for our current cruising area. That is NZ and the nearby South Pacific Islands. High salinity, UV, ocean passages, and rough conditions. Rigging requirement is less than 10 years old. No mention of material.

Regarding our forestay issue, we’re going to get it replaced next week but will leave the rest of the re-rig to the original plan in April. No need to remove the mast and can be done in a few days to allow for applying new fittings and servicing the furler and foil. We have to stick with 14mm 1x19 wire but will use Hamma compact strand to have more strength. Particular attention will be paid to ensuring that we have proper articulation.

This is not DIY for me given the swaging work and the furler bits, but others more handy than me (and not holding down full time work that pays more than the hourly rates) probably could do it with the help of a few friends. Delos has a set of videos describing a re-rig they did themselves in Thailand (IIRC) a few years ago.