Fully-Battened vs 'Battenless'

[barnakiel]

Both systems are fine. I prefer full battens because they go down neater into the lazy jacks. Sail with full battens flogs less, which is important to some sailors (like me).

I would not add any roach above whatever the design says, unless there is any special reason (from the picture your boat I guess you have plenty of SA already).

barnie

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Bash

Dollar for dollar, you may get more performance from a laminate sail without full battens rather than a full-battened dacron sail.

Cruising?

[cfarrar]

A compromise - our top two battens are full and the bottom two partial. Gives us light air shape and decent roach, though in light air I sometimes wish for full battens and a few more inches of sail area. If I were to choose just one sail to be laminate, I think it would be the jib, no? After all, it doesn't have battens, it's desirable to keep it flat during puffs, and rollling it on the furler won't create harmful creases.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

Before I would change the aspect ratio I would consider the amount of weather helm your may or may not already be getting. How does she balence now? The mod you speak of may require re installing the bow sprit. More power may be more work than it's worth?

Todd

The boat does not, will not and never did have a bowsprit (though it would look really nice with this hull it isn't needed). The original design was commissioned as a knock about (knock about: sloop with no bow sprit or top mast). I had a really big boom for the main and a fractional jib and a nasty weather helm....a bow sprit would have helped but the boat would have been drastically over canvased. Second owner cut down the main foot, added a permanent backstay, cap shrouds with spreaders and made the forestay detachable, this allowed a jib to be flown on the headstay, balancing the rig with out over powering it. By adding an attachment point on the foredeck the forestay becomes parallel to the headstay turning the boat into an even better balanced cutter. I talked to someone to day (who knows his stuff) and with my hull, rig and the type of sailing I will be doing he recommended fully battened top with partially battened bottom laminated sail (he told me about some new treatment for them)

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by cfarrar

A compromise - our top two battens are full and the bottom two partial. Gives us light air shape and decent roach, though in light air I sometimes wish for full battens and a few more inches of sail area. If I were to choose just one sail to be laminate, I think it would be the jib, no? After all, it doesn't have battens, it's desirable to keep it flat during puffs, and rollling it on the furler won't create harmful creases.

From what I have found out that isn't a compromise but rather the best way to go

[Firebird]

"The Sailmaker's Apprentice" and "Self-sufficient Sailor" and "Voyaging on a small Income" have been my bible for setting up the boat. 16' sculling oar, lots of sail making and repair tools, etc. I'm modifying my existing main for the time being(ex-racer) and having one new main made before casting off. Anybody had any personal experience with Cox Molded Sails? They are well spoken of by Emiliano Marino, but I have never spoken to anyone with personal experience. Their loft is not far from our port, so maybe a field trip is in order!

[IdoraKeeper]

Oh, I get it now. When you were refering to moving the forestay back onto the fore deck I guess I naturally imagined a sprit. Sorry about that. You still living aboard? I had to put more heat on Idora to keep the condensation off the overhead.

I look forward to your comments on the new sail. Will you get it locally? There ought to be some good sailing after this next series of fronts I imagine.

Todd

[capt.bobfm]

You will always get better proformance (more efficient air flow) with full batons as it more resembles a ridgid wing. But you're "cruising" aren't you ? What does it matter if you go a half knot faster or point five degrees closer ? What's the rush ?

[wolfenzee]

This same discussion surfaced in a different thread on a different forum. The fact that people have conflicting opinions, some right, some wrong, some right for their application but not necessarily mine only confuses matters. Unless I move the bottom of my backstay out on a boomkin I have no room for a roach (6" at head).
It has been recomended to me to search out a "retired" racing sail w/not quite full battens and have it altered to fit my boat. I have a "T track" on a laminated wood mast, the only way I can figure to make full battens work is to install a very expensive track system for full battens (I have been quoted over $1000 for just the track)

[rtbates]

How's your boat's balance now? What effect will adding more main have on that balance?

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by rtbates

How's your boat's balance now? What effect will adding more main have on that balance?

I just added the option at sailing my boat as a cutter, though that increases the sail area before the mast, it is actually pretty close to the mast. My boat is nicely balanced, new headsail configuration (Yankee on pennant) allows me to move center of effort back and forth. Because of my backstay I can not add much area on the main, but can make it more effiecient. The only time I have had issues with weather helm were is the 180% Genny sailing close hauled, center of effort for the Genny was about 1' in front of the mast main has a 15' foot and 37' luff....that did make for a nasty weather helm. I haven't figured out the center of lateral resistance but the hull was designed for a really big main w/small jib (though original rig didn't get it right). Present sailplan (not including Yankee on topmast stay) is on p.2 of this thread

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

Oh, I get it now. When you were refering to moving the forestay back onto the fore deck I guess I naturally imagined a sprit. Sorry about that. You still living aboard? I had to put more heat on Idora to keep the condensation off the overhead.

I look forward to your comments on the new sail. Will you get it locally? There ought to be some good sailing after this next series of fronts I imagine.

Todd

I am still living aboard, I just moved back to Port Ludlow. I can't afford a locally made sail, so will wait on a new main for awhile. I will brobably pick up a "retired" racing main when I am in San Fransisco and have it altered to fit my boat. I have a 37'luff, 15'foof, significant camber with a slight rake. In addition to that I will have to find a batten system that will work for me, I have 24" clearance between clue and backstay and less than half that at the head, so any amount of roach just isn't feasible, besides increasing sail area of the main will add to weather helm of a nicely balanced boat. Full and/or long partial battens should give me good sail shape with out having the pocket wear short battens have. I am a cruising sailor with plans of sailing off shore. Someday down the road, when I can afford it I will have a new main cut.

[Mystic38]

full battens, batt cars/slides and lazy jacks,... just doesnt get better than that.

the benefits of positive roach, good (and managed) sail shape have already been discussed, but to follow on from another post about battcars & slides, other advantages are:
a) the ability of the sail to freely rotate allows you to reef while under sail with apparent wind from +/-60 degrees... this is very very handy when the weather pipes up
b) the lower friction of battcar/slides, particularly those with ball bearings, allows you to dump the sail in a real hurry..and again, providing the main can luff without hitting the spreaders this can be done without going head to wind in an emergency.

[goboatingnow]

I've had more trouble with battens then any other part of the sail makeup. I'd take an in mast furler over full battens at times !!


Dave

[wolfenzee]

To change my boat over to be able to accept ""batten cars" would cost well over $1000 for just the track and hardware+plus full battens+ the differences in the sail it'self in a new sail....min $1500-$2000 in addition to the cost of a new sail. To some an extra $1500 or so in addition to the already expensive cost of a new mainsail isn't much.