Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

[SY_Maria]

Hi guys, I've got furling Elvstrom unbattened mainsail with Selden rig on 445. Sometimes when it starts to blow we reef it down to a 2-3 meters out and it serves as a very convenient storm sail... except it is not made to be storm sail and every time we reef it down to "4th reef" I wonder when the whole thing will blow.
So I'm contemplating an idea to reinforce the main - only the first 2,5 meters form the clew - by applying 2 additional sheets of Dacron each side, and installing a penant by the clew that will additionally hold the clew in place when under strong winds. So then when we reef it down to 4th reef so to speak, some part of this triple-dacron will be furled around the furler nice and tight and some part will be outside acting as tough storm sail.
Tell me, what's wrong with that? Can you please kill this idea for me?

[JPA Cate]

I certainly can't kill the idea for you, but, maybe talk to the sailmaker first. If you have all that weight on the aft end of the sail, I think it would perform poorly in light airs, but talk to someone who knows more than me. The bulk added may also affect the in-mast furling capabilities, depending on clearances.

A.

[SY_Maria]

Thanks, Ann, I haven't though about the weight, to be honest... something to consider, for sure.
We did checked clearances with Quantum Sails guy, and he suggested a couple of good ideas as to how to implement this. He's never done anything like this before and was only too happy to quote about 1000 Eur for the job so not sure he'll be a good reference source. But yes, I need to talk to some independent sailmaker to see what they'd say.

[Dockhead]

Why do you think the sail is "going to blow"?

It should be plenty strong enough.

Let me explain: Sails need to be made of heavier and heavier cloth, the larger the spans, the force is applied to. Bigger sails = thicker cloth.

So when you furl your main down, you're making it smaller and smaller. So the theoretical right thickness of cloth for a given furled-down size will be thinner and thinner. So the original thickness of the cloth will be oversized, for the furled down sail.


One of the advantages of furling mains, is that they make excellent storm sails, when furled down. First of all, it's instantly available (unlike a trisail in a locker), and second, they get flatter and flatter as they furl down. I use mine in all kinds of weather, and I certainly don't worry about it "blowing".

[Kenomac]

We've used our old dacron furling main furled down to about 25% in 50 knots several times without a problem. Not so lucky with the old furling yankee which needed the uv re-stitched when it was furled to 30% in 35 knots. But that was more likely do to the age and blown out shape of the sail.

Our new DYS main should work perfectly fine as a storm sail when furled.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We've used our old dacron furling main furled down to about 25% in 50 knots several times without a problem. Not so lucky with the old furling yankee which needed the uv re-stitched when it was furled to 30% in 35 knots. But that was more likely do to the age and blown out shape of the sail.

Our new DYS main should work perfectly fine as a storm sail when furled.

Furling mains have a good shape when furled way down, but furling head sails do not. Furling headsails get worse and worse and less and less effective, as they are furled down. In my opinion, furling headsails are not suitable for storm sails at all. For that you need one of the following, in order of desirability:

1. A permanently rigged staysail.

2. A staysail on a temporary inner forestay with hyfield lever.

3. A storm jib hoisted over the furled headsail (forgot the name of the system).

4. A storm jib hoisted in place of the principle headsail.

[Kenomac]

We have a permanently rigged staysail we use all the time. On that particular day, the staysail roller-furling line was questionable, and we needed to know with some certainty that it would work since we needed to sail into a shipyard without an engine.

The yankee did a good job, but three to five feet of the stitching came out due to the upper part of the sail flapping/quivering... whatever it's called.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

. . . .The yankee did a good job, but three to five feet of the stitching came out due to the upper part of the sail flapping/quivering... whatever it's called.

It's called flogging, and it will destroy a sail in short order. It's exactly the sign of the sail being the wrong shape or trimmed wrong. Of course very much worth it in your emergency, but this is why a furled way down headsail is a rotten storm jib.


"A flappy sail is not a happy sail."

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We have a permanently rigged staysail we use all the time. On that particular day, the staysail roller-furling line was questionable, and we needed to know with some certainty that it would work since we needed to sail into a shipyard without an engine.

The yankee did a good job, but three to five feet of the stitching came out due to the upper part of the sail flapping/quivering... whatever it's called.

Those tack lines look like they are about a 1/4 mile apart, eh? Good job getting in

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We have a permanently rigged staysail we use all the time. On that particular day, the staysail roller-furling line was questionable, and we needed to know with some certainty that it would work since we needed to sail into a shipyard without an engine.

The yankee did a good job, but three to five feet of the stitching came out due to the upper part of the sail flapping/quivering... whatever it's called.

That looks as if it was tiresome, nerve-wracking and precise.

[Kenomac]

Thanks, it's a very narrow channel, and of course the engine worked just fine when I started it up after we docked.

[kmacdonald]

Don't do it. Get an off the shelf Rolly Tasker trysail for storm use. They are not expensive and work well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Don't do it. Get an off the shelf Rolly Tasker trysail for storm use. They are not expensive and work well.

I'm guessing you've never actually used a furling main as a storm sail?

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[MartinF]

As Dockhead said, the material of the main should be amply strong. If any thing were to fail it would be stitching,especially any around the clew which is left exposed when the sail is furled. You could therefore take a less radical approach than the one you suggest, and install reinforcing "fingers" of sailcloth or dacron tape to supplement the existing clew reinforcement. Tape can be installed through the existing clew cringle if it is big enough. Two or three foot long patches would be mostly inside the mast when the sail is furled.
M

[David B]

Originally Posted by SY_Maria

Hi guys, I've got furling Elvstrom unbattened mainsail with Selden rig on 445. Sometimes when it starts to blow we reef it down to a 2-3 meters out and it serves as a very convenient storm sail... except it is not made to be storm sail and every time we reef it down to "4th reef" I wonder when the whole thing will blow.
So I'm contemplating an idea to reinforce the main - only the first 2,5 meters form the clew - by applying 2 additional sheets of Dacron each side, and installing a penant by the clew that will additionally hold the clew in place when under strong winds. So then when we reef it down to 4th reef so to speak, some part of this triple-dacron will be furled around the furler nice and tight and some part will be outside acting as tough storm sail.
Tell me, what's wrong with that? Can you please kill this idea for me?

A number have quoted similar thoughts, but I will throw my perspective into the mix.
Think of it this way. When the full main is out - maximum wind for full main, you have all that power on the clew, and the clew is designed for it.
You have also all that power on the luff, and the luff is designed for it.
When reefed, your sail is flatter - exactly what you need. You also have a change of ratio between windage on the hull, and sail area - the hull is having a significantly greater effect, so you have proportionately less sail for the higher wind, than you would if there was no hull windage
Therefore, for the same overall result, the sail is doing less work now, therefore the clew is actually under less strain than in more moderate conditions with a full main!

Now to the luff - yes the exposed length of it is less for the same pull from the clew (equal and opposite forces ...), but it is a softer transfer of force back onto the roll inside the mast, than with the sail fully out, and just the luff bolt-rope inside the extrusion, and that stitched luff taking all the load.

We have quite comfortably had ours out a couple of metres in gusting F9, and never did I think it was under undue stress.

If it is going to fail, it will tear at the leach as it enters the mast slot, and as the leach is spiraling as you furl, it is not laying up, and therefore you could reinforce the leach if you were really concerned.

Alternatively, on the port side of the slot on your Selden mast, you have a bolt-rope channel for a storm tri-sail. With a spare halyard and a fully furled main, that is the real option for real heavy weather sailing.

Hope that helps you along with the other comments in this thread.

David