Furling Mainsail or Not ?

[dohenyboy]

All the hoity toity sailing ships around here have in-mast furlers. If you don't get one, their crew will not talk to your crew and if you offer them caviar they will think its the cheap Iranian stuff.
Then again, if you walk around with a Tilley hat on, they will know that you are one of the proletariat, one of the unwashed masses.... figuratively and literally.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Stays'l : You lose half a knot when you take it down, and lose half a knot when you put it up!

That said, I love my staysail. When punching into strong tradewinds, or strong winds in general, the staysail and deeply-reefed main make a great, well balanced, combo. When the wind gets stronger, the boat balances nicely under staysail alone.

My roller-furling 120% genoa does well at the lower ranges, and on some points of sail the staysail does add some drive. As things pick up, various combinations of roller-reefed genoa and staysail give me several "gears" to use.

Tacking the genoa around the staysail stay is a minor pain, but with practice we've got that pretty much under control.

Other boats will behave differently, but on mine the staysail is a useful sail.

Agreed Paul.
Here is a portion of a postings I made on another forum...

Originally Posted by beiland

The points I was trying to make for my aft-mast rig with its big genoa is that I was trying to meet a big variety of conditions with a limited sail inventory (my 3 sails are the only ones I have onboard, and are set up to be reduced in size by roller furling, not hoisted or replaced by alternatives).

As such I wanted a good size genoa sail for those often encounter 5-15 knot winds that we would really like to sail in rather than turning on the engine(s). This size sail, in those conditions, should be relatively easy to handle, ...(and when out cruising I would NOT be looking at getting into tacking duals). I was seeking to get the best from this genoa sail by giving it the best help from the 'cutter jib' (mainstaysail as I refer to it), and providing for its best dumping traits as described by aerodynamicist Tom Speer and Arvel Gentry

I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. These materials should also allow for sailing under a partially furled sail. As I have said before I believe a hefty size ROUND furling 'tube' (headstay) should utilized to negate some difficulties of stalling the sail due to a 'too-sharp' leading edge to the headsails. Combine this type of headstay foil with a modern 'shaped foam insert' in the leading edge, and this sail should set pretty well in the roller-reefed condition. It would be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 30 knot range.

For storm conditions that we see coming we slip another sail over that furling genoa: Storm Sail Configurations

[robert sailor]

OK back on this topic:

From a sail shape/performance perspective the furling main can not be compared to a well built battened sail, especially to windward. I know people think if the rig is a little bigger it will make up for it but it won't. It is taking us all back to the Pardey's favorite method which I have never agreed with, that said:
Crossing oceans the furling main does have an advantage:
1) My Wife can reef it by herself on most points of sail
2) Because it is so damn easy the right amount of sail is always deployed and we all know that often thats not the case on a slab reefed sail.
3) It is a very cheap sail to replace as it is smaller and simple to build.

It does take some knowledge to ensure smooth operation but it is reasonably simple.
Personally I have come to like the system unless I am going upwind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

OK back on this topic:

From a sail shape/performance perspective the furling main can not be compared to a well built battened sail, especially to windward. I know people think if the rig is a little bigger it will make up for it but it won't. It is taking us all back to the Pardey's favorite method which I have never agreed with, that said:
Crossing oceans the furling main does have an advantage:
1) My Wife can reef it by herself on most points of sail
2) Because it is so damn easy the right amount of sail is always deployed and we all know that often thats not the case on a slab reefed sail.
3) It is a very cheap sail to replace as it is smaller and simple to build.

It does take some knowledge to ensure smooth operation but it is reasonably simple.
Personally I have come to like the system unless I am going upwind.

Obviously just making a furling main bigger will never make it as good as a good roachy battened main, because a bigger sail is not inherently better; it just moves the wind range down. A furling main is significantly inferior to a good roachy battened main aerodynamically so falls short upwind where you need a favorable lift to drag ratio, which furling mains can't deliver. You can make it somewhat better with a higher aspect ratio (taller rig and shorter boom), but that opens a different can of worms since furling mains suffer from more weight aloft already as it is. Make the mast taller and you need a lot of extra keel to compensate.

That being said, it only matters upwind, which is something few cruisers do much of.

I have a brand new carbon fiber vertical battened straight leech (not hollow as usual) furling mainsail in my forecabin, waiting to be hoisted for the first time. We shall see how much closer that gets me to battened main performance.

Like Robert, I have learned to accept my furling main, which despite the inferior aerodynamics and extra weight aloft has some tremendous advantages for the long distance sailor who spends much time in strong weather.

They are almost universal on large cruising boats up here in these latitudes, and that is not an accident. In these latitudes where we have a large proportion of days of F6 or more, you really need instant control of your sail area. In the Med or some more benign place, they are less useful and the tradeoffs less worthwhile.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

From a sail shape/performance perspective the furling main can not be compared to a well built battened sail, especially to windward.

You'e talking about mast-furling, right?

My boom-furling main has full-length battens and a decent roach. I don't have all the sail-shape tweaks available that a non-furling sail has, but I can go from full to flat easily due to the way the furling is rigged (it furls the middle of the foot first). It works quite well and we don't give up any area.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Obviously just making a furling main bigger will never make it as good as a good roachy battened main, because a bigger sail is not inherently better; it just moves the wind range down. A furling main is significantly inferior to a good roachy battened main aerodynamically so falls short upwind where you need a favorable lift to drag ratio, which furling mains can't deliver. You can make it somewhat better with a higher aspect ratio (taller rig and shorter boom), but that opens a different can of worms since furling mains suffer from more weight aloft already as it is. Make the mast taller and you need a lot of extra keel to compensate.

That being said, it only matters upwind, which is something few cruisers do much of.

I have a brand new carbon fiber vertical battened straight leech (not hollow as usual) furling mainsail in my forecabin, waiting to be hoisted for the first time. We shall see how much closer that gets me to battened main performance.

Like Robert, I have learned to accept my furling main, which despite the inferior aerodynamics and extra weight aloft has some tremendous advantages for the long distance sailor who spends much time in strong weather.

They are almost universal on large cruising boats up here in these latitudes, and that is not an accident. In these latitudes where we have a large proportion of days of F6 or more, you really need instant control of your sail area. In the Med or some more benign place, they are less useful and the tradeoffs less worthwhile.

Surprised you didn't consider Air Battens.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Surprised you didn't consider Air Battens.

How long have these been on the market??

[minaret]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

How long have these been on the market??

Quite a while. I've mentioned them here repeatedly. Probably on this thread.

[minaret]

From '07.


Inflatable Battens - Ocean Navigator - November/December 2007



When it comes to headsails, roller furling has been a big hit with voyagers. That’s not always the case, however, when it comes to in-mast mainsail roller furling. While adding to the ease of sail-handling, in-mast main furling has its drawbacks too, mainly the reduction the sail’s roach, which with a standard main is normally supported by plastic or wooden battens. These drawbacks may be a thing of the past however, for users of a new batten-handling system.

AirBattens is a new product that uses compressed air to inflate mainsail battens when an in-mast roller mainsail is unfurled. The batten pockets are pumped full of air, creating the same stiffness in the leech of the sail as a batten. The same 12-volt reversible pump in the cockpit-sited control panel evacuates the battens prior to furling. The unpressurized batten is little more than a slightly thicker section of sailcloth. The system also allows for individual batten control. As the sail is rolled into the mast, one batten at a time can be depressurized, leaving the others still providing stiffening for the sail.

This battening approach allows a mainsail to have a wider, fuller roach, giving the sail added lift when going to weather and added area when going off the wind.

The AirBatten system uses an electrically-powered air pump located in the control panel enclosure on deck. This pump feeds air pressure via flexible tubing to a pressure distribution panel. The panel allows the operator to fill and empty the three or four battens in the sail either as a group or individually. A pressure gauge indicates system pressure. From the control panel, tubing runs under the coach roof and up to the gooseneck end of the boom and then inside of the boom to the midpoint of the spar. A coupling on the outside of the boom transfers the air pressure to spiral flexible tubing, like the spiral wire used to connect a telephone handset to its base. From the boom mid-point the spiral tubing allows extension and retraction of the sail. At the clew of the sail the tubing is incorporated in the hem of the leech and connects to each batten. The sail must be specially made to accommodate the tubing and the inflatable batten pockets.

There are two sailors behind The AirBatten Company, Dr. George Weber and Robert Henderson. Dr. Weber, a vascular surgeon from New Jersey, was sailing his Morgan 45, Morning Light, on the Chesapeake one day when he gazed up at the hollow roach in his mainsail, the shape of the sail necessary for the sail to furl into the mast. He began to think of a way to increase the roach of the sail while still keeping the convenience of in-mast roller furling.

Weber, who laughingly calls himself a “blood vessel plumber,” thought of the technique he had used on patients with heart problems: a thin tube with an inflatable balloon at the end. This same technique used in heart angioplasties might work to address the problem of battens to stiffen the leech of a roller-furling mainsail. Why not use a tube running up the sail to inflate not an angioplasty balloon, but an inflatable batten? Inflatable battens would allow the sail to carry more roach and thus provide more drive. But when deflated, the sail could still be rolled up.

Dr. Weber started a patent search and discovered that a sailor from Port Stanley, Ontario, named Robert Henderson had already filed a patent for just such a system. And, in fact, had built a working system using a fire hose. Henderson had done such a good job, he had won a few races on his 40-foot sloop using his early air batten system. Dr. Weber joined forces with Henderson and the two set about designing the present AirBatten product. They gained the interest of Mark Wood’s UK-Halsey loft in Miami. UK-Halsey Miami has made several AirBatten mainsails. “We’re preserving the convenience of roller furling while restoring the performance of a full roach sail,” Dr. Weber said.

Weber and Henderson will soon introduce a new control panel for AirBattens. Given that sailboat batteries sometimes get flattened, this new panel will have an emergemcy pressure dump valve to allow a user to empty the battens without the need for the electric pump. The new unit will also be equipped with a Schrader valve (the same valve found on bicycle tires) that will allow a boat’s crew to use a manual pump to inflate the battens.

And there are other improvements in store. According to Weber, the company is working on inflatable battens for genoas and for spinnakers. Dr. Weber declined to give a price for an AirBatten system, but suggested that the entire package should cost less than a quality new mainsail. Contact AirBattens at george@airbattens.com.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by minaret

Surprised you didn't consider Air Battens.

My new mainsail has short thin vertical carbon fiber battens.

The big question is how well they will go in and out of the slot in the mast. That's the big tradeoff in in-mast furling sails --

No battens, hollow leech, extremely low risk of jams if the sail is cut right. My existing main, even in its current bagged-out state, is brilliant here -- rolls in and out, even with significant folds in it, with no problem. Two jams, one clearly operator error, the other cleared in three minutes, over six years of heavy use with thousands of operations.

How will the new battened one work? Waiting with bated breath to see. Battened furling mains have much higher risk of jams.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

You'e talking about mast-furling, right?

My boom-furling main has full-length battens and a decent roach. I don't have all the sail-shape tweaks available that a non-furling sail has, but I can go from full to flat easily due to the way the furling is rigged (it furls the middle of the foot first). It works quite well and we don't give up any area.

+1

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My new mainsail has short thin vertical carbon fiber battens.

The big question is how well they will go in and out of the slot in the mast. That's the big tradeoff in in-mast furling sails --

No battens, hollow leech, extremely low risk of jams if the sail is cut right. My existing main, even in its current bagged-out state, is brilliant here -- rolls in and out, even with significant folds in it, with no problem. Two jams, one clearly operator error, the other cleared in three minutes, over six years of heavy use with thousands of operations.

How will the new battened one work? Waiting with bated breath to see. Battened furling mains have much higher risk of jams.

Yes. Boom angle is absolutely critical with vertical battens. Have seen several get built and then quickly disposed of. One was on a Moody 54 on my dock, built by extremely reputable sail makers.

[robert sailor]

I better get with the program, this is the first info I have seen on air batons on furling mains. That said still sounds complex but a cool idea.

[Sailor Doug]

If you think air battens are cool you should not have a in mast roller furling. Keep it simple and low risk or go to standard full batten main.


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[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

If you think air battens are cool you should not have a in mast roller furling. Keep it simple and low risk or go to standard full batten main.


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First post that makes sense reading this thread today