Furling System

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Another option, say on a seldon system would be to add a safety strop. Have the pull out system but add a meter of small spectra to it so if the worst happens the whole lot doesnt unwrap completely.

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A good idea, but not really necessary in my opinion. Care with the furler, and also always having enough wraps on it, will generally prevent any disaster. For the freak case, at least preserve the gear -- which is what the Selden method does.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I don't think making the attachment to the furler a weak link is a good solution overall. The risk of the whole shebang unfurling if the line pulls out is too high, of course it will happen in the worst conditions, 50 knot squall, land to leeward... and unless you have a jedi knight aboard to whisk the sail down into the saillocker in a flash things are about to get fun!

Making the furling line attachment the weak link does not at all increase the risk of the sail getting loose. If you're still furling hard when the line runs all the way out, SOMETHING is going to break, period. Making the attachment weak just determines WHAT will break -- something trivial or something awful.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

:thumbup::thumbup: simple solutions!

Make the line long enough so there is no way you will pull it all out, or run out of furling line in a blow when the sail furls up much tighter.

YES, that's what I do. Enough wraps to give you a good reserve. It will be easier with the smaller diameter line, as I won't any more be limited by the capacity of the drum.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

. . . .
My original befuddlement on the issue still stands. That being, why use powered winches on such a line to begin with? I mean it's not as if they're even needed for genoas on boats of size, so I can't see the requirement for them on such a boat's furling line.

Simple -- loads versus human power available.

I could probably furl my yankee by hand IF there were no sail load on it, but it's destructive to let it flap. It's much better to keep some tension on it so it furls smoothly without flogging. For that on a boat this size you need quite a bit of power. Like most cruisers, we do not have a large contingent of jocks on board to heave lines under load.

Nor is it any problem with good procedure including always having enough wraps on the furler and watching what you are doing.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ just a partial reply cos its late here Uncivil.

That fuse sounds clever. Interesting stuff.

Anyway, on the power winch thing. Really its ergonomics. By the time you get up to 60 odd foot the sails are getting big and the boats are real powerfull as I am sure you know. Especially since a cruising boat is often heavy and masthead rigged.

Most raceboats that size and power would use coffee grinders to sheet the sails, hell my two tonner has winches the size of a 10 gallon bucket with three speeds, located in the best spot to grind on.

A cruising boat often has an appalling cockpit layout for winching ergonomically. And even with good big winches its hard to actually crank on then hard for a sustained period with both hands.

One 62 footer I sail on, the winches are so poorly positioned that you really need to use electricity to even tack the boat. Especially with a cockpit full of punters and two of us sailing the thing, including steering. Its a natural extension from there to using the electric primary winches to hoist the main and roll away the jib. Its easy, its lazy, it works real well, and its probably why the lower bearings failed on the seldon furlex. One day that winch will break something very expensive!

I do my best to not use the electric winch on the furling line, by running off and blanketing it behind the main, it is possible to roll it away by hand, even without a winch. But we don't always have searoom, or time. And then the choice is to get the thing in quickly and efficiently with the power winch, or take for ever by slowly grinding it in by hand while the sail flogs itself to death.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

. . . And then the choice is to get the thing in quickly and efficiently with the power winch, or take for ever by slowly grinding it in by hand while the sail flogs itself to death. . .

Ed Zachary.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

^^ just a partial reply cos its late here Uncivil.

That fuse sounds clever. Interesting stuff.
I originally picked up the idea, where they were using them on the tack of a spinnaker on an OPEN 60, IIRC. There were 3 of them, set in parallel, each designed to blow at a slightly higher load. But at loads between 1/2 & 3/4 of where any serious damage might happen to the sail.
So, both good training aids, as well as sail protection. And handy tools also, IMO!

You simply tie or splice a piece of cordage to break at an (approximate) pre-set load. Though usually they're only/of best use on gear that's more highly loaded. Due simply to the breaking strengths of most modern lines.

Anyway, on the power winch thing. Really its ergonomics. By the time you get up to 60 odd foot the sails are getting big and the boats are real powerfull as I am sure you know. Especially since a cruising boat is often heavy and masthead rigged.
I'm not sure how the masthead thing makes a big difference, as a big boat's a big boat. But point taken.
Though on a well designed 50'er or even 70'er, the loads on the primaries needn't be that high. Such is all part of the design spiral. And whether the boat's a heavy tub or not.

Most raceboats that size and power would use coffee grinders to sheet the sails, hell my two tonner has winches the size of a 10 gallon bucket with three speeds, located in the best spot to grind on.
My 2-tonner was the same. 3-speed Barient 36's. Headsail (Masthead) I = 56', J = 16.5'

A cruising boat often has an appalling cockpit layout for winching ergonomically. And even with good big winches its hard to actually crank on then hard for a sustained period with both hands.
IMO, the old Swans & some of the other classic "cruisers" had it right, given that they had coffee grinders for things with loads of significance.

One 62 footer I sail on, the winches are so poorly positioned that you really need to use electricity to even tack the boat. Especially with a cockpit full of punters and two of us sailing the thing, including steering. Its a natural extension from there to using the electric primary winches to hoist the main and roll away the jib. Its easy, its lazy, it works real well, and its probably why the lower bearings failed on the seldon furlex. One day that winch will break something very expensive!
No doubt! Good luck cleaning up the mess when it happens

I do my best to not use the electric winch on the furling line, by running off and blanketing it behind the main, it is possible to roll it away by hand, even without a winch. But we don't always have searoom, or time. And then the choice is to get the thing in quickly and efficiently with the power winch, or take for ever by slowly grinding it in by hand while the sail flogs itself to death.

I've always been averse to even using a winch at all on a furling line. Or one with any real power, anyway. As to me, when one does so, it's So much harder to feel it if you run into a snag, & or are doing any damage. Even when you're watching the sail the whole time.
Which is hard, as you can't view the; tack, clew, head, spreaders/leech line, furling line, & sheet, simultaneously (thus the reliance on feel).
Any & all of which are where damage occurs when rolling up a sail that way, thus my preference for as much feel as possible when doing it; even via a hand powered winch.

Plus, when you're teaching those, who are new to sailing, IMO, they need to learn to trim as much (or more) by their other senses, than just visually. Especially as the bigger the gear, the costlier the mistakes.
Albeit such isn't news to you I'm sure, on any of these ideas.

Also, as I imagine you're familiar with. Less & less people "come up" in boat these days (sadly). Meaning starting out in smaller ones & small keel boats, & working their way up. Learning more as they do. Often with coaching.
Rather, many buy, & or step onto 35'-40' boats, & begin learning from there. And miss out on so many of the important lessons along the way. Even just basic nav.

[Matt Johnson]

Are you sure the Seldon manual says to strip the core out to act as a fail safe? Harken has always suggested stripping the core out of the furling line too, but this is to reduce bulk and not to act as a fuse. I would assume Seldon is the same, but with limited data, I can't download a manual right now.

Matt

Edit: This was before high tech line was regularly being used for furling lines.... Mostly just polyester double braid.

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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Are you sure the Seldon manual says to strip the core out to act as a fail safe? Harken has always suggested stripping the core out of the furling line too, but this is to reduce bulk and not to act as a fuse. I would assume Seldon is the same, but with limited data, I can't download a manual right now.
. . .

YES, I'm sure. Because I questioned why the riggers were doing that on my boat, and they showed me the manual.

I guess if you do this for the first few wraps of the furling line, it will reduce bulk as well, but in any case -- the cover of a double braid line by itself is far weaker than the whole line or even the core, so the effect is the same.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I've always been averse to even using a winch at all on a furling line. Or one with any real power, anyway. As to me, when one does so, it's So much harder to feel it if you run into a snag, & or are doing any damage. Even when you're watching the sail the whole time.

Which is hard, as you can't view the; tack, clew, head, spreaders/leech line, furling line, & sheet, simultaneously (thus the reliance on feel).
Any & all of which are where damage occurs when rolling up a sail that way, thus my preference for as much feel as possible when doing it; even via a hand powered winch.

Plus, when you're teaching those, who are new to sailing, IMO, they need to learn to trim as much (or more) by their other senses, than just visually. Especially as the bigger the gear, the costlier the mistakes.
Albeit such isn't news to you I'm sure, on any of these ideas.

Also, as I imagine you're familiar with. Less & less people "come up" in boat these days (sadly). Meaning starting out in smaller ones & small keel boats, & working their way up. Learning more as they do. Often with coaching.
Rather, many buy, & or step onto 35'-40' boats, & begin learning from there. And miss out on so many of the important lessons along the way. Even just basic nav.

Indeed they do. And if something breaks they call in a specialist to fix it. and so learn nothing about how the boat works in the process. Still somehow not to many get into trouble, prehaps a testiment to the toughness of modern gear and modern vessels?

Back to furlers. I agree with you, its much better to do it all by hand, sadly its pretty tough to haul in a big sail, in a decent breeze by hand without running off downwind or letting the sheet out completely and having the sail flog wickedly. So its back to the same set of tradeoffs. Look after the furler or look after the sail? and what often happens is you end up with a flogging sail and not enough grunt to haul it in, so then you waste more tine loading it onto a winch while the sail beats itself to death and the sheets try to rip staunchoins off and tie themselfs into knots.

So the best compromise I have come up with so far is to oversize the gear so you can winch it in if you need to, and winch it carefully bit by bit, and avoid it if you can. Running off and blanketing the sail is so quick and easy in comparison, but not aways possible.

Sometimes I do a reach luff, reach luff routine to get the sail in some. this involves bearing away, ease the sheet till the sail luffs, then lock off the sheet, get the furling line ready and luff sharply, pulling in the furling line as the sail flogs, then bear away, and repeat. this is slow. much quicker just to grind the sail away. Another option is to tack and furl it as you go around. Sometimes heaving too can also work.

This is a big plus of a more modern design with a fractional rig and a smaller 100% jib vs the older IOR type little main big 130% genoa type. much smaller sail, and a shorter foot to roll away. also you can luff and not have the sail wrap itself around the shrouds.

Id love to hear more about your old two tonner. I enjoy the way mine sails, and the big rig means she doesnt need a overlapping genoa to do well.