GENOA vs. JIB: choosing from 90% to 110%

[hamburking]

I favour small sails. I usually carry my smallest jib on my furler. When the wind is light you can always run the engine, or just go slow. But when the wind is strong you will be glad of the smaller sail. Where I live (Kingston, Lake Ontario, Canada) it is windy almost every day.

[Scaramanga F25]

I raced with Ted Hood in the 70's. He did not think much speed was to be gained on the wind with much more than a lapper. 110% 120%. 150's and 160's were in use then with larger foretriangles than now.
Same with a double head rig when close reaching.
These have not changed much.

Off the wind in light airs we have many new modern sail options.

Round the world sailors mostly have 3 roller furling head sails as well as a complement of downwind sails.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Hene

If you are going to have a reefable, non-rollerfurling Genoa, there are a couple of options for dealing with the bunt of the sail. These would be instead of the "controlled flogging" described by Stormpetrel, which sounds great for a few hours, but perhaps hard on the sail for longer?

Just to clarify this I wasn't talking about using the outboard high sheeting point when reefing, though it could be handy to enable reefing without completely lowering the sail.

I was thinking about using the reef point on the leech with the sail at full hoist to get a much better set while reaching. The lower potion of the sail shouldn't flog in this case.

Those new zip pocket systems look pretty good. But I would worry about getting the sail around the inner forestay when reefed. I had a lot of problems on my first boat keepimg the reefing genoa's bunt tidy and snag free, kind of put me off the concept, though for non overlaping sails it seems to work these days.




Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

I raced with Ted Hood in the 70's. He did not think much speed was to be gained on the wind with much more than a lapper. 110% 120%. 150's and 160's were in use then with larger foretriangles than now.
Same with a double head rig when close reaching.
These have not changed much.

Yep, exactly right.

Off the wind in light airs we have many new modern sail options.

Round the world sailors mostly have 3 roller furling head sails as well as a complement of downwind sails.
I'm in favor of this, even if not all of them are on furlers. It only makes sense to be able to easily switch gears by switching sails, in order to use a cutter rig with a more modern technique. Where the only time 2 sails are used together are reaching, or downwind, when a staysail with it's tack properly positioned, is used in conjunction with a purpose designed reaching or running sail. It's kind of foolish not to. Especially since double headsails mean a lot more work, for less performance, comparatively, when sailing upwind.

Albeit when using a staysail off of the wind, the proper positioning of it's is critical. As done right the sail can yield you 0.5 -1.0kts+ And on racing boats, including some of the VOR designs, the teams spent huge amounts of time & money in order to get this dialed in right.

Has anyone tried a Bonneted Jib as described by the Pardeys? With it, you pretty much zip off a couple of lower panels in order to reef it. And their sailmaker was reluctant to try it as well, though it supposedly works well.

One other point that comes to mind is that it's tough to reef a jib & get a good shape in it. Which then both reduces it's drive, & increases heeling moment. And that also significantly impacts the main's trim in the negative. At a time when you want to be maximizing lift & minimizing drag, even more than usual. Especially if you're trying to go upwind to get out of a bad position, such as increasing your distance from unfavorable real estate.

The thing is, for all of this talk of reefing jibs, it's a heck of a lot easier to simply switch to a smaller sail on another stay. Especially given how large sails are on a boat of this size, coupled with the fact that we're talking about a lot of wind. So the loads on it's corners will be in excess of a ton. And even with a soft clew, such a sail will beat you to death in about 5 seconds.

It's an effort to handle headsails on such a boat even with a full crew. And you have to reach for your courage to get near it if it's flogging at all, & sometimes when it's not. So I'm for just leaving this one on the furler, & switching to a Solent or Staysail.

[JPA Cate]

The OP doesn't want to go to a furler, he says. We were once in that space. It is not till you find yourself not changing down and up when you should -- and repeatedly -- that you choose to re-visit the concept. We didn't come to that decision till we had been out quite a long time, with some longish passages under our keel.

I think Dockhead's points about Dacron just not being the right thing for big boats makes some sense. And, if he is, then a laminate sail is needed (and if not gone to will have a short lifetime, plus, most of the cost is in the sewing). But, given that the OP doesn't want a furler, perhaps there's little point in discussing for him how much better it could be with the laminate and the furler.

I'm wondering about availability of heavy enough weight Dacron for Thunderbird's putative sail? Not only would it be stiff as heck and hard to handle, but does it even exist???

Ann

[UNCIVILIZED]

Um, Ann, Dockhead hasn't yet made an appearance in this thread. Though it would be nice if he did.

On the Dacron question, they do make cloth that heavy, but it's a beast to sew, as well as to handle once it's made into sails. They're stupid heavy, & often very stiff.
Here's a grade school level on sail cloths, including laminates. Though not discussing say, woven Spectra, which is now out of fashion. Out of Whole Cloth: Sailcloth 101 | Cruising World

Quite honestly, it's worth doing a lot of self education on the subject, in addition to heeding the pro's advice. When you consider what a sail of this size costs. And that over any kind of time span, a laminate will come out ahead in terms of costs.
The linked article came from a Bing search on Contender Challenge Sail Cloth. They make some heavy Dacron fabrics. And the number of searches on such topics are endless.

Also for a boat of this size, the sails are an easy 1.5 - 2x the size of Insaitable II's (Ann & Jim Cate's boat), with similar (or greater) weight increases. Not to mention cost. Which goes to the handling equation. And even pro sailors like Ellen MacArthur hate dealing with old style headsails on boats this size, for exactly that last point.

If going with hanks, it makes sense to discuss the various types & materials used for it's hanks, & how they're attached. As well as looking at building the sail so that it can later be converted for use in a foil, should you desire to do so later on.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

One other point that comes to mind is that it's tough to reef a jib & get a good shape in it. Which then both reduces it's drive, & increases heeling moment. And that also significantly impacts the main's trim in the negative. At a time when you want to be maximizing lift & minimizing drag, even more than usual. Especially if you're trying to go upwind to get out of a bad position, such as increasing your distance from unfavorable real estate.

I strongly agree with this, and it was something I wish I had understood earlier in my sailing life.

Roller furling jibs are great, but don't expect them to work upwind with a couple of rolls in them. They don't! Hank-on jibs like the OP prefers are actually not all that dumb an idea.

So I'm all for the smaller jib, in answer to the OP's question. I have a 120% yankee and 95% blade on my boat, and the blade equals the power of the yankee with less heeling and drag down to less than 10 knots of wind, when upwind. The yankee only gives more power with the wind abaft the beam, and light. In the strongish conditions typical up here -- 20-25 knots of true wind -- the blade is especially brilliant. It will drive the boat at hull speed in 25 knots true with the main completely put away. I could have done without the yankee, actually, especially considering the huge cost.

The blade on my boat is ok without reefing up to 30 knots or so apparent (upwind), by which time the staysail alone is effective, so I just take it in. I have never needed to reef it except downwind in very strong conditions. That means it is always working at its best.

I'm a big fan of non-overlapping jibs.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I strongly agree with this, and it was something I wish I had understood earlier in my sailing life.

Roller furling jibs are great, but don't expect them to work upwind with a couple of rolls in them. They don't! Hank-on jibs like the OP prefers are actually not all that dumb an idea.

So I'm all for the smaller jib, in answer to the OP's question. I have a 120% yankee and 95% blade on my boat, and the blade equals the power of the yankee with less heeling and drag down to less than 10 knots of wind, when upwind. The yankee only gives more power with the wind abaft the beam, and light. In the strongish conditions typical up here -- 20-25 knots of true wind -- the blade is especially brilliant. It will drive the boat at hull speed in 25 knots true with the main completely put away. I could have done without the yankee, actually, especially considering the huge cost.

The blade on my boat is ok without reefing up to 30 knots or so apparent (upwind), by which time the staysail alone is effective, so I just take it in. I have never needed to reef it except downwind in very strong conditions. That means it is always working at its best.

I'm a big fan of non-overlapping jibs.

Could you be kind enough to fill us in on how you came to pick your fabrics, & why. As well as the thinking on sail sizes. Both in general, & as relates to the specific sailing qualities of your boat.

Also, I'm guessing that in terms of sail area, the yankee & the blade must be pretty close to one another, non? Given the high clew of the yankee, & what it costs you due to the clew height.

BTW, what's up with the reference to beavers in your siggy line. I'm gathering that it's a euphamisim, but don't know what it means.

[donradcliffe]

For boats under 50 ft, dacron is a superior cruising sail, because the laminates will suffer from sun degradation and have a life of 5 years or less, especially in the tropics.
However, larger boats require heavier cloth, and dacron becomes unmanageable if you don't have trained gorillas on board. I'd set a limit on the weight of the sail in the bag (say 100 lbs) and give that to my sailmaker and see what he says. The laminate sails will weigh half as much, but you will pay more than twice as much.

For beating into winds over 14 knots, the blade make the most sense, but performance will suffer in lighter airs and as you start reaching and running. Fully crewed boats will just change out to a difference sail, but short-handed cruisers will probably not. If your idea of cruising is bashing to weather, stick with the blade.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Could you be kind enough to fill us in on how you came to pick your fabrics, & why. As well as the thinking on sail sizes. Both in general, & as relates to the specific sailing qualities of your boat.

Also, I'm guessing that in terms of sail area, the yankee & the blade must be pretty close to one another, non? Given the high clew of the yankee, & what it costs you due to the clew height.

BTW, what's up with the reference to beavers in your siggy line. I'm gathering that it's a euphamisim, but don't know what it means.

So -- the beaver stuff in my signature line, which I'll take down soon since it can't be interesting to anyone, is nonsense -- it's a Russian language game. It means:

"If you want kindness for yourself, just call a beaver
If you're kind even without a beaver, it means you're a beaver yourself in your soul"

It's a play on words -- "bobr" or "bobyer" is beaver; in the accusative case "bobra". Kindness, goodness is "dobro"; in the accusative case "dobra" -- so, in the first line "dobra -- bobra"; then the short form attributive adjective "dobr" ("kind") and the old-fashioned form of the word for beaver -- "bobr".

Russian is a fully inflected language like Latin or Ancient Greek -- so every single word is transformed and twisted to suit case, gender, number, and aspect. Constructing a Russian sentence is like working a Rubik's Cube. It's one of my passions outside of sailing.

If you want to get a little taste of this Russian style of playing with words, read something by Nabokov, who carries it into English to some extent by some miracle, since English isn't really suited to this at all.


Concerning sailcloth:

It was what was recommended by my sailmaker -- it's a mylar film like all laminate sails, with carbon fiber and technora. It is covered by a thin layer of taffeta on both side to protect against chafe. The sail is built out of panels of this material in a radial pattern. It is the exact same material and construction as on the racing Swan 60 I spent a day on this summer.


We also consider something called "DYS" from Dimension-Polyant, but the carbon-technora has a bit more modulus, better for me since I sail the crap out of my boat in sometimes crazy weather.


I trusted my sailmaker and followed all of his recommendations. He said that this material is highly resistant to mildew, and that it is very long lasting. His opinion was that woven sails are no good for boats over 50 feet, which are sailed hard, because they are fundamentally unable to carry the high loads involved without excessive stretching.

All I can say is that I now have 7000 miles on these sails, and the shape is still like new, and there is not the slightest sign of wear, chafe, or mildew anywhere -- they are still really like new. So I am extremely pleased. I was willing to give up some longevity in exchange for better shape, but so far it is not looking like these sails will last less than good Dacron ones.


I do change between the yankee and the blade -- I use the yankee if I'm going to be sailing mostly off the wind and/or it's a summer high pressure light wind weather cycle. The blade for ANY upwind sailing, especially in stronger conditions.

My blade is quite a bit smaller than the yankee -- the clew is also somewhat raised, for better sheeting angles off the wind. This was the initial sketch from the sailmaker:



I have been astonished that the much smaller sail gives the same power upwind as the larger yankee. Even in very light wind. Some fluke of aerodynamics -- maybe aspect ratio? Cracked off just a little I exceed my target speed of 2/3 true wind speed, sometimes by quite a bit if the sea is really flat. I've seen 7.5 knots in 10 knots true, when cracked off to about 35 AWA. This requires very exact sail trim -- even a couple of inches off with the traveller will lose a knot. Max VMG to windward occurs about 28 - 29 AWA in those conditions, with the blade. I am very satisfied with this; this is a liveaboard cruising yacht, after all, with generator and washing machine on board and nearly half a ton of ground tackle in the bow. Good sails make an incredible difference.

The sailmaker told me to expect that, and to expect to sail about 4-5 degrees higher at max VMG to windward, than with the yankee.


He also told me not to reef roller reefing headsails if it can be avoided -- it ruins them by stretching them along weak lines. He said that if will change to the blade anytime 20 knots of wind are expected, I can double the life of the yankee.

I've never had to reef the blade. It doesn't even have a reef point. It's good to about 30 knots apparent without reefing. I can get even somewhat beyond that by taking down the main altogether and sailing on jib alone. I have been experimenting with sailing using main alone or one headsail alone in stronger conditions, so that the one sail being used can be reefed less and have a better shape. I have gotten mostly very good results. Weather helm on my boat is a linear function of heel angle and is almost unaffected by fore-aft balance of the sail plan -- probably because the sails are high enough aspect that there not such a fore-aft distance between various points of the CE. I can sail pretty well even hard on the wind, with jib alone, if I'm using the blade.

I also get good results with staysail and full main as long as I'm not quite hard on the wind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

. . . For beating into winds over 14 knots, the blade make the most sense, but performance will suffer in lighter airs and as you start reaching and running. . .

I do not notice any loss of performance at any wind speed, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam.

This is with the blade in 12 knots true:






I miss the larger sail in light wind and abaft the beam.

However, this loss of performance can be made up by motor-sailing.

If I had to choose one, it would definitely be the blade, which has a wider range of usable conditions -- it's more versatile.

Maybe the ideal combination would be the blade plus a cruising Code 0. Switch to that in light winds other than sailing hard on the wind. This would be more complementary to the blade than the yankee is, and would give a really big performance boost in those conditions, much bigger than I would get from switching to the yankee.


Another thing about these new sails -- and you can see this from the photo -- the boat becomes an apparent wind monster. It means that a beam reach is no longer the fastest point of sail in light to moderate wind. A close reach becomes far more powerful as you climb as the boat starts to sail in her own apparent wind.

[TheThunderbird]

DH
Can you be more specific about the brand name of your carbon-technora, and the weight of the two sails , please?
Or, since laminate sails are not rated by oz., any idea of the total surface and weight of each one!?

Upwind, the lower portion of sail, close to deck, is the most powerful one. No doubt the yankee is designed for going on a beam reach, it cannot grasp the wind on tacking so efficiently. That sail makes good point only on ocean passages imo.

Frankly, if i have to make a critic to your sailmaker (may I?) i would have made for a yankee 60% for when you sail in 25kn or more and dont need to fight for AWA degrees, 'cause of waves and practical inability. But then, also a staysail can go, lower and closer to CE (we love cutters)

PS you seem to have furlers. How do you switch from one fore sail to another? It doesn't look much practical to me to work on those alu-slides... do you have two drums, or a solent rig? Or else!?
:-)

[mtyler]

On a cutter, add a pendant to connect the sheets to. The pendant reduces the tendency for the Knotts on the sheets to hang on the staysail. Adding a pendant has virtually eliminated knot hanging on my 130 high cut Genoa on my Cutter-Ketch.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[UNCIVILIZED]

Dockhead, thanks for posting, especially the bit on your sails. As to your siggy line, I knew what it said, but not what it meant. Funny (as in odd) language.
On the AWA thing. I think that you overstate this concept a bit much as it applies to your boat, given the amount of lead you're hauling around. While you sail in some damn cold places, yours is not an iceboat.

The following question isn’t just aimed at Dockhead. And it's relevant to this thread, & sailing in general:
Which is that I can’t understand the devotion to Yankee jibs. In my mind they’re inefficient, period. Particularly if you have adjustable jib leads, meaning the type which can be tuned without needing to do anything more than pull on their control lines from the cockpit. As with them most standard jibs achieve quite good shape as you go from beating to reaching. So then where is the (hypothetical) advantage of a Yankee? And even if you have a cutter rig, it makes sense to keep a mid-sized to large jib on your furler. Rolling it up when the wind goes above F4-F5, & then switching to your staysail or solent. Non?

The other part is that Yankees probably have no more sail area than does a conventional 100-105% jib. And when measured in terms of drive/efficacy due to shape, & greater drag from same, they’re a good ways behind such a sail. Especially when you consider that a 100% jib can on many boats, be sheeted inside of the shrouds if it’s cut properly. So then it’s a far more close winded than a Yankee as well. As would be an optimized 90-95% jib having battens: on all of the above counts. Including retaining a far better shape when you begin to move the breeze astern. So again, efficiency bonus, conventionally cut headsail.

Even as noted by Dockhead, the only real perk to the Yankee is off of the wind in lighter breezes. A time when sail area is king, & it’s small extra sqft over the blade allows it to win out. Which isn’t a surprise. And for wind that’s anywhere aft of 70 deg. AWA it only makes sense to hoist a bigger sail that has it’s shape designed for reaching, or downwind work. Since any jib will be ultra anemic in comparison, efficacy wise, & in terms of area. Not to mention that a jib’s heavier fabric is at odds with the lower AWS at such wind angles.

I’m thinking that I must be missing something about Yankees. Either that, or that someone switched me to decaf when I was sleeping Please help.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mtyler

On a cutter, add a pendant to connect the sheets to. The pendant reduces the tendency for the Knotts on the sheets to hang on the staysail. Adding a pendant has virtually eliminated knot hanging on my 130 high cut Genoa on my Cutter-Ketch.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I have no trouble whatsoever tacking my cutter rig. The staysail is self-tacking, and the yankee goes through the slot in front of the inner forestay in a jiffy.

I have fun freaking out the Hamble crowd short-tacking up the channels single handed. The big Moody is the easiest boat to tack I've ever sailed, probably because she carries her speed so well through the tack.

I don't knot my sheets, by the way. They are 14mm racing dyneema with spliced eyes in the end. I use soft shackles to attach them to the clew cringle.