GENOA vs. JIB: choosing from 90% to 110%

[TheThunderbird]

Boat is a 54' cutter, originally designed for a genoa1 of 140% and a genoa3 of 110%. As an ocean racer it has flecible mast, 3 spreaders and 3 hydraulic Navtec tensioners.

140% is a legacy of the past, and I mostly sail single-hand (or as if..)

I dont know on which criteria to make a choice between a jib (90/100%) or a 110%genoa.

I have a gennaker, and dont plan for a code0 soon.

This foresail will add to a staysail, and i consider upwind performance paramount.

Old genoa went outside shrouds, any new sail must go inside them, with barbers on clew, closely on the deck.
I = 21', so from 100% to 110% is just 2', but from 65 to 75sqm (say 850sqft ?).

Sails are hooked.
I am told that this additional 10%, in getting the genoa closer to the main, has a great benefit.
Also, battens can allow for roach for additional push...
And some twist to open up the sail on top and control heeling.

OTOH, a jib would be lighter, cheaper, easier to trim and manage. But sailmaker says it would be not enough in light winds...

Having the hooks I've beed discouraged from any laminated cloths, as prone to breakings when squenched/collapsed on deck. Thus i can't consider them for keeping the weight lighter.

I will consider a reefing line, in order to work with a 7oz. cloth, instead of 8.50oz. (High Aspect dacron by Contender)

I am a full time cruiser with little interest in speed, but close tacking is a safety measure imo.
I have a light (old) kevlar genoa which is lighter than my foresail (1/3 the size)...


Any thoughts are much appreciated.

[donradcliffe]

If you are going to cruise short-handed, get a roller furler and a 120% genoa with a foam/rope luff. That's way more a safety issue than the last 3 degrees of AWA.

[TheThunderbird]

I have hydiosyncrasy for furlers... they turn me off :-)

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

I have hydiosyncrasy for furlers... they turn me off :-)

I agree with Don...if you're single-handing then a roller furling jib is just about the most important safety item you can add, WAY more important than getting 3 more degrees closer to wind.

But if you don't go that route, then by your logic the blade is the way to go. It's going to be "safer" than the 110. Yes it will be slower in light wind, but it will be safer in higher wind.

[Snowpetrel]

That boat should have reasonable enough performance to 'burn' by fitting a 105% jib that sheets inside rather than a bigger overlaping sail.

I would definately just go for the biggest non overlapping sail, and put up with slightly reduced performance in light airs and reaching in exchange for ease of tacking, minimal chafe, good pointing and a higher wind range.

Getting the clew position just right is critical, better to err on slightly less overlap to make sure it doesn't foul on the shrouds when you crack the sheets. Battens can be a pain, but they really do help the shape. My no4 jib has a full length top batten and a few down lower. It works well enough.

I have gone this way with my 79 IOR boat and I was very happy with her light air performance, even with just the no 3 jib and main set.

For really light stuff sometimes the smaller sails work better anyway, especially in a seaway or in shifty conditions.

For reaching and very light upwind stuff a nylon hank on drifter could be an easily handled and stowed sail.

[TheThunderbird]

Yap.. the clew will be low on deck, between D1 and V1 (lower shrouds) and likely between 105 to 110%.
Reefing allows for using a comparatively lighter film.

After 25kn AWS i have the foresail, on a wider AWA (50°)

IT makes sense :-)

[Snowpetrel]

One trick if you are going to add a reef is to set it up so as the clew reef patch can be used as a high sheeting point for reaching with outside sheets. The lower normal inside sheets just get tightened enough to stop the lower portion flogging.

This improves the reaching performance of the sail considerably and controls the top much better.

Barbor haulers help as well, but they stop working so well as the wind moves well around to the beam on this type of sail.

[TheThunderbird]

@Snow

It sounds really great! It'd add stability when reaching, too

I may think it is a non-permanent fix, by using an opening shackle..

:-)
I forgot saying that sailmaker claims the sail needs to turn close for higher power, and as such a blade jib works poor when compared to a 110%, not just for the Surface, but for the Shape

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

@Snow

It sounds really great! It'd add stability when reaching, too

I may think it is a non-permanent fix, by using an opening shackle..

:-)
I forgot saying that sailmaker claims the sail needs to turn close for higher power, and as such a blade jib works poor when compared to a 110%, not just for the Surface, but for the Shape

Yeah thats how I would do it, just clip the outside reaching sheet onto the reef point when you bear away. You can play both sheets to get the leech tension just right. I dont think twin working sheets are allowed under many racing rules..

Sailmakers are a funny bunch, but they generally know what they are talking about. Prehaps your sail maker is worried about the head angle getting to small and the sail being too high aspect? Which can give problems. If a 110 will still squeeze inside the shrouds maybe that's the way to go, but I wouldn't want to risk having the sail catching on the V1 too much when the sheets are eased.

[bigpuff]

iv used a Yankee and found it easier than an overlapper,deck hugger but honestly if your one out a furler is the only and safest way out

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

That boat should have reasonable enough performance to 'burn' by fitting a 105% jib that sheets inside rather than a bigger overlaping sail.

I would definately just go for the biggest non overlapping sail, and put up with slightly reduced performance in light airs and reaching in exchange for ease of tacking, minimal chafe, good pointing and a higher wind range.

Getting the clew position just right is critical, better to err on slightly less overlap to make sure it doesn't foul on the shrouds when you crack the sheets. Battens can be a pain, but they really do help the shape. My no4 jib has a full length top batten and a few down lower. It works well enough.

I have gone this way with my 79 IOR boat and I was very happy with her light air performance, even with just the no 3 jib and main set.

For really light stuff sometimes the smaller sails work better anyway, especially in a seaway or in shifty conditions.

For reaching and very light upwind stuff a nylon hank on drifter could be an easily handled and stowed sail.

The above is pretty good stuff. But even with a 105% I'd not want to give up having it on a furler. Jibs on boats of that size are just too big to wrestle with much, unless you're getting paid for it. Hanks or no.
You might look into Solent Stays too, not just for flying smaller jibs from. As in smaller than this sail. But in that you can also hank light air, & downwind/reaching sails onto them as well, while leaving your blade stowed on the furler.

I'd also avoid the lighter fabric weights that you mentioned, as even without reefing it, or partially furling it, you'll have this sail up at times in 20kts true, before you shorten it down. And loads stack up on sails quickly on such large boats, especially as this is a #3. Which is really too big for anything made of plain dacron on such a vessel.

When it comes to sail performance, ask your sailmaker about batten options. To include vertical ones, as commonly get used in in mast furling mains, & flexibles. So that you can orient them normally, & again, still use a furler.
I'm not certain as to the viability of each, but with standard battens in sails the size of #3's, they really increase the sail's efficency. Sometimes bumping it up to giving more power than a #2, if not a bit more. Though of course the fabric has to be able to support such a shape in order for this to work. So that plays into it, especially given that it's a #3 as noted.

Battens help such sails in the light stuff. And as Snowpetrel mentioned, if it's super light, like under 4-5kts, then often it's better to put up a windseeker, which is the size of a #3, vs. a big jib. And then sheet the windseeker & the main board flat. Where between the boat's motion, & or, what wind they can catch, you get a reasonable amount of drive out of them. In conditions when there's not enough breeze to fill up a light #1 without the wind being bounced out of it by the boat's motion. Motion that actually assists in creating drive with the other above sail combo.

One other thing to ask your sailmaker about is the clew height thing. Specifically if you can at first err on the side of having a sail which perhaps is a bit low cut, & see how it works power wise. So that possibly you could raise it later if needed, as you can't do the reverse.
The sticky points with this being that if you go with a laminate, then this likely isn't possible. And you also have to factor in how well the boat goes in lighter air with sails like a #3, vs. how often she catches waves going upwind in 25kts true.


BTW, you might try speaking to Dockhead about the decision spirals/flow path in choosing this size sail for his boat. As his boat's your size, & he went through this when choosing his laminated blade, & main about 2yrs ago. A headsail size, style of cut, & especially "fabric", which he wasn't sure of when ordering them. But that he now utterly loves. His blade's made of laminated Technora (& possibly some Vectran). And the last post I saw about it a few weeks ago still praised it more than, well, you name it

[TheThunderbird]

Plenty of good stuff :-)

Laminated cloths were called off given the severe bending (180°) of sail when hoisted on hooks and along toe rail, on Deck. My regret is it'd make for a much lighter sail, and a handier one.

Yes, 8.50 oz. May look more appropriate to boat size and weight.

In the Med, sudden guts of wind reaches 22kn real, which is 28kn AWS, for a few hours. In that occurrance, either a jib blade or a (reefed ) #3 would go. Beyond, it makes sense to tack w staysail and reefed main.

The suggestion for a reacher in light winds is a very good one.

If any, overlapping can be considered for good tacking in light airs, not for beam/reach course.



Waiting for DH (is your Moody furled or hooked? I know you praised your Carbon-Technora... which maker ??)

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'm thinking that even 8.5oz would be light for this sail, if it's to see any serious upwind use. Since you're talking about perhaps 650-700sqft, which at let's call it 27-30kts AWS, works out to a sheet load of 2,000 - 2,500lbs +/- That kind of cloth weight might work on a light/medium #1?

I'm just having trouble seeing a dacron #3 lasting long at those loads, upwind, punching through waves. Or at least not while holding it's shape for long. What are your current/old sails made of & how's their service life been? Also, why is a laminate, or other high end non-dacron sail, out of the question? And what has the sail maker recommended, including suggested laminates... other than Cuben Fiber

I'm not trying to push an agenda, I'm just scratching my head a bit. Okay, & in need of some caffeine, or a nap.

[Stemci]

Andy Schell has a very good podcast on this subject featuring sailmaker Cuck O'Malley.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=370190112

FYI

[Hene]

If you are going to have a reefable, non-rollerfurling Genoa, there are a couple of options for dealing with the bunt of the sail. These would be instead of the "controlled flogging" described by Stormpetrel, which sounds great for a few hours, but perhaps hard on the sail for longer?

For several years, we had reef points on our several (aging) headsails. Reefing involved lowering the sail, attaching the lower tack point, shifting the sheets to the higher clew doubling, furling the bunt and tying the reef points, and re-hoisting.

We did have some correspondence with Sally Lindsey Honey regarding the furling Genoa she and Stan have on their Cal 40. The Genoa was somewhat high cut, and they reefed it by lowering to a higher tack point, keeping the same leech and clew but still reducing area and luff length quite a bit. The bunt was rolled up and compressed with a zipper closure (nice solution--she was a sailmaker, but now retired).

Finally, what sent us--very reluctantly--to roller furling, was our weakening grip. Compressing the bunt became just too difficult, even with old, soft sails. If you are going to be reefing your Genoa, the weight of the cloth and the strength of your hands would be things to consider.
We envy you your time in the Med--for us, some of our best cruising years!