Getting a taller mast

[AiniA]

Lets ignore whether it is a good idea or not and whether the boat can take it, but lets assume I would like to take an existing deck-stepped mast that is about 43' long and add three feet to it. I know I would need new sails and standing (and possibly) running rigging. Could the extra length be added to the mast top (to leave the boom, etc. undisturbed) with a sleeve or would I need a new mast? Lets assume I was getting this work done in England or France, anyone have any idea (ballpark) of the cost of such a job?

[UNCIVILIZED]

You’ll likely either need a new mast, or to have a new section spliced onto part of the existing tube, that’s roughly half of the length of the finished mast, or a bit longer. And you also might get lucky, & find a quality 2nd hand carbon fiber mast.These are actually more available than you might think.

Why only 3’? That’s not much gain in sail area, for what will be a lot of work & expense.It tends to be common to add something akin to double that in order to boost a boat’s performance.Especially if the boat’s sluggish in the light stuff even when the sea is glass.And look at it this way, if the new mast turns out to be way, way too tall, then you can always shorten it, but going the other direction is obviously tough.Plus you can always reef, or even give the sails a few nips & tucks, to reduce their area, while still maintaining good shape.As with most mains & jibs, you can cut them down a bit on the leech.

Also, to offset the extra weight from the new, taller tube, you might consider synthetic rigging, a ’la Colligo Marine.

A couple of other options for boosting a boat’s performance are:
~ A “larger” main, sail area wise. Via full battens & more roach.
~ Add a sprit. Fixed or removable; bolted to the foredeck, or in the style of J-boats.This, coupled with a true Code 0.The type with a 2:1 (or more) halyard or tackline, which gives it a taught enough luff for windward work.

Much of the cost of such a swap depends upon your resourcefulness in finding parts that will work, such as 2nd hand spars, & sails.Along with how much of the work you can do yourself.Including everything from designing & fabricating tangs, to making your own standing rigging.Since the cost of labor plays a huge role in doing such a swap.

The more specifics that you can give us on the boat, the rig (current & proposed), & your sailplan (current & proposed), the better the feedback we can give you.

[model 10]

Somebody added 4' to the bottom of our deck stepped mast. Sleeves, welds, rivets the whole bit. Looks expensive but no concerns.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

You’ll likely either need a new mast, or to have a new section spliced onto part of the existing tube, that’s roughly half of the length of the finished mast, or a bit longer. And you also might get lucky, & find a quality 2nd hand carbon fiber mast.These are actually more available than you might think.

Why only 3’? That’s not much gain in sail area, for what will be a lot of work & expense.It tends to be common to add something akin to double that in order to boost a boat’s performance.Especially if the boat’s sluggish in the light stuff even when the sea is glass.And look at it this way, if the new mast turns out to be way, way too tall, then you can always shorten it, but going the other direction is obviously tough.Plus you can always reef, or even give the sails a few nips & tucks, to reduce their area, while still maintaining good shape.As with most mains & jibs, you can cut them down a bit on the leech.

Also, to offset the extra weight from the new, taller tube, you might consider synthetic rigging, a ’la Colligo Marine.

A couple of other options for boosting a boat’s performance are:
~ A “larger” main, sail area wise. Via full battens & more roach.
~ Add a sprit. Fixed or removable; bolted to the foredeck, or in the style of J-boats.This, coupled with a true Code 0.The type with a 2:1 (or more) halyard or tackline, which gives it a taught enough luff for windward work.

Much of the cost of such a swap depends upon your resourcefulness in finding parts that will work, such as 2nd hand spars, & sails.Along with how much of the work you can do yourself.Including everything from designing & fabricating tangs, to making your own standing rigging.Since the cost of labor plays a huge role in doing such a swap.

The more specifics that you can give us on the boat, the rig (current & proposed), & your sailplan (current & proposed), the better the feedback we can give you.

The boat is a Northeast 400 which is a Mark Eliis designed motor sailor built by Cabo Rico. They made a tall mast version (+ 3') which sails adequately and a regular one. There is one in the Channel Islands at a good price since the boats are not known in Europe. Just wondering about the best way of improving sailing performance. Making the mast higher seems pretty expensive to me even with much of the work being done by me. Using a Code 0 might make good sense. The boat has a very substantial and long anchor platform that would work well as a sprit I think.

If we bought this boat we would likely cruise in Europe for a few summers before taking it to the Caribbean for several winters. Just thinking out loud about the possibilities. Final question, if I bought the boat, where is a good spot to store it and get some work done on it - thinking about a bow thruster - this is a boat I will have until I am around 80 and I want to make it as easy as possible for my wife and I to handle. Generally is southern England better than northwestern France or Belgium or the Netherlands.

[Dockhead]

Does the taller rig version of your boat have more ballast in the keel, or deeper draft?

Keep in mind that moving the center of effort of the sailplan and center of gravity of the boat up will have different bad consequences, like making the boat more tender, moving the useful wind speed range of the sail plan down, etc.

This may be good in light conditions if you are struggling undercanvassed most of the time, but boy will you pay for it in stronger conditions. Especially if you don't compensate with more and/or deeper ballast.

Motor sailers are generally intended to be motored or motor-sailed in light conditions -- the "iron genny". You'll never make a Swan out of her no matter how tall you make the mast, and a low, compact rig with low center of effort, low windage, and high wind range can be really nice in strong conditions, especially if you're sailing a lot in latitudes with a lot of strong conditions.

If I were you, I would probably be looking at better sails, not more sail area, and adding that Code 0 with sprit


Concerning where to be based --

The UK is not in Schengen, so is the obvious choice for non-Europeans. UK South Coast is absolutely fabulous sailing, with the whole English Channel with wonderful North Brittany and Normandy in your cruising grounds.

It's fairly warm in the winter due to the Gulf Stream (palm trees grow in Southampton and lemon trees in the Scilly Islands) so we sail year round.

The only drawback is the cost of berthing, which is among the highest in Europe in the summer time (not that bad compared to the U.S., however). Berthing is much cheaper in Atlantic France and Netherlands. If Schengen doesn't bother you (you have to be out of there 90 out of any given 180 day period), then you might think about Atlantic France -- maybe down in Biscay, South Brittany. It's warmer than the UK, cheaper, and B E A U T I F U L. But more remote and with much less of the fleshpots of civilization (Southampton is an hour from London by train).

The Netherlands and Belgium are very nice, with cheap berthing, and there is more urban civilization closer to hand than in Atlantic France, but this is already the North Sea. Do you want to sail in the North Sea in the winter time? No, you don't

The UK and Atlantic France are not for wimps, either -- strong wind, frequent gales, storms up to hurricane force, huge tides, strong currents, tidal races with crazy sea states, and lots of rocks. Will put hair on your chest. But unlike the North Sea, there is reasonable winter sailing. In any case, you'll never be bored, and you will not be sitting around wishing for more wind, that's for sure. In my opinion it's some of the best sailing in the world.


If I were you, I would probably spend summers bumming around Atlantic France (and further North if you like), and the rest of the time on the UK South Coast. Another argument for the UK South Coast is the superb infrastructure for repairs and maintenance -- best in the world, particularly in the Solent. The "off" season for cheap berthing is officially October through March, but the really busy time is just June through August, so you can usually negotiate winter rates for September through April or maybe through May.

The Solent is particularly fabulous for spending the winter because it is protected water with benign sea states, so you can sail in practically any weather, and you have half a dozen legendary ports and estuaries (Cowes, Portsmouth, Southampton, Yarmouth, Lymington, the Hamble, the Beaulieau, Chichester, Newtown Creek, etc.) within a couple hours sailing from each other. With better weather, you can leave the Solent and go to Poole, Weymouth, Dartmouth, etc., or pop across the Channel to Cherbourg (60 miles from the Needles). And London just an hour away by train when you need a fix of urban civilization. Heathrow and Gatwick airports nearby. It is an absolutely stonking place to spend the winter on a sailboat -- in fact best place in the world that I know of.

[UNCIVILIZED]

If you haven't bought it yet, you'd likely be better to find something which already has better light air performance. Since it sounds like even with a 3' taller mast the boat's performance is underwhelming.

If this NORTHEAST 400 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com is the boat you're referring to, & the numbers on that website are accurate, 3' more mast won't make her sail well, even in 10kts of wind. For a boat to sail fairly well, especially in 5-10kts of wind, generally you need an SADR of 20 or more. And to not have acres of wetted surface. And to do well in 5kts or less, you need an SADR of around 25+, with a fin keel & spade rudder. Also, a bit (okay, a lot) less windage helps too.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

If you haven't bought it yet, you'd likely be better to find something which already has better light air performance. Since it sounds like even with a 3' taller mast the boat's performance is underwhelming.

If this NORTHEAST 400 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com is the boat you're referring to, & the numbers on that website are accurate, 3' more mast won't make her sail well, even in 10kts of wind. For a boat to sail fairly well, especially in 5-10kts of wind, generally you need an SADR of 20 or more. And to not have acres of wetted surface. And to do well in 5kts or less, you need an SADR of around 25+, with a fin keel & spade rudder. Also, a bit (okay, a lot) less windage helps too.

Uncivilized, who is exceptionally knowledgeable on all things related to sailing, is normally the person I would never argue with on anything, but I'd just like to add a modest comment to the discussion of Sail Area/Displacement Ratio.

Note well please that this is NOT by any means a "more is better" proposition. A high SA/D means not "better sailing performance" but "lower wind range" -- which is not at all the same thing. For fair weather or weekend sailing in the Med or Florida or Southern California other benign latitudes, then by all means -- buy a boat with 20 or 25 SA/D. But in my opinion, that's way too much for a boat at these latitudes, and/or a boat used for serious long distance cruising where you don't always get to pick your weather.

Note also that a SA/D of 25 demands a much deeper keel than what normal cruising boats have, even in lightish conditions.

My boat with the standard sails has 16.5 SA/D, and that gives a wind range which is more appropriate to these latitudes. But even that is more than I usually want, so I have reduced my sail plan further with a high aspect blade jib instead of the standard 120% yankee, and I use the blade 80% of the time.

Note that my boat is VERY fast in the typical conditions up here, despite having in-mast furling. She has D/L of about 190, a slick underbody, little windage, long waterline (47'), and a very good rig with carbon laminate sails. I easily deal with the normal racing boats in the Solent unless the wind is less than 10 knots (not maxis or Open 60's etc., obviously, but I am faster than Beneteau Firsts and J boats in most conditions which are normal for this latitude, including upwind).

What makes a boat fast in all conditions is lower D/L -- ideally below 200. And as Uncivilized said, performance-oriented underbody with spade rudder and bulb keel. Once you've got that, then you want SA/D which suits the wind range you sail in, not "the more the better".

Any motor sailer is going to have an underbody shape and D/L which is simply unsuitable for light wind sailing -- by design. That's why it's called a "motor sailer". There's no point in trying to make a Swan out of it -- it's a futile effort. Therefore if you want a motor sailer, then just plan on motoring in light wind, and be happy for a low, low windage, compact sail plan, which will be just the ticket in strong wind.


I like motor sailers. In my opinion, many, many more sailers would be happier with motor sailers, than with with the boats they have now. Why?

Because a vanishingly small percentage of cruising boats can actually go upwind at all anyway. To get a cruising boat to go upwind decently well (which I arbitrarily define, for myself, as being able to make 5 knots VMG to windward in reasonable conditions), you have to spend a lot of money and you have to work really hard. For 90% or more of cruisers, it's simply not worth it. So why not just admit in the first place that you're going to be motoring (or waiting) when you need to get dead upwind, and optimize your boat for that?

My ideal motor sailer would have a bulb keel and spade rudder, and would not be too heavy, but would have a compact, low rig, probably a ketch rig, with good sails, and a long retractable sprit with a big cruising Code 0 sail. Lots of engine power and big tankage. Nice cosy pilothouse. SA/D probably around 12. Motor upwind and in light conditions. Sail reasonably in F4, off the wind at least, and go like a bat out of hell in F6 through F8 and probably faster than many pure sailing yachts with rigs too big for the wind range.

I don't see anything wrong with the OP's choice of boat. Would be a great boat for the English Channel. SA/D is good for this latitude, even for a pure sailing boat. It's not heavy at all for a motor sailer (D/L of 232). But with less than 5' of draft, there's just no way you'll get any upwind performance out of it. The other thing which bothers me is the very huge pilothouse, which will make beaucoup windage, which is very harmful to sailing performance. But you'll be powering in any case where you would be hankering for sailing performance. That same huge pilothouse is going to be just lovely when you're motoring in bad weather, especially in winter, or sitting at anchor on a lovely winter day.

In my opinion it's a nice boat.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Firstly, Dockhead, thank you for the exceedingly kind words. Now, as to the topic at hand...

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

If you haven't bought it yet, you'd likely be better to find something which already has better light air performance. Since it sounds like even with a 3' taller mast the boat's performance is underwhelming.

If this NORTHEAST 400 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com is the boat you're referring to, & the numbers on that website are accurate, 3' more mast won't make her sail well, even in 10kts of wind. For a boat to sail fairly well, especially in 5-10kts of wind, generally you need an SADR of 20 or more. And to not have acres of wetted surface. And to do well in 5kts or less, you need an SADR of around 25+, with a fin keel & spade rudder. Also, a bit (okay, a lot) less windage helps too.

Not to argue, but I clearly stated in what wind ranges the noted SADR's are relevent to. And unless a boat has a particularly slippery hull form, they're fairly accurate.

Dockhead, note that you yourself now state (& often in the past have stated) that in winds of under 10kts, your boat's no speedster. And that in light airs, your engine often gets switched on. Me, I generally prefer to sail 95%+ of the time, including in winds of 3kts.

Yes, there are drawbacks & caveats to having a lot of sail power. Thus since no wind ranges were stated by the OP, I delineated my answers fairly clearly. Were I to sail primarily where sub-10kt winds were a rarity, I wouldn't be exceedingly concerned with a high SADR. As yes, then such a boat has sails, a rig, & keel which are something of a waste of coin which could be better spent elsewhere. Like on rum, women, & fast cars


EDIT: Within reason (meaning while still keeping boats structurally sound) I love the trend towards more Raised Saloon (faux pilot house) designs, & catamarans. It's great to easily be able to see outside when under sail or at anchor. Especially as while they're pretty to look at, & have great joinery, older Swans are fairly cave like down below. And you have to climb fully 2m up a ladder to get a view of what's going on outside. Along with their crazy "companionway" designs which you have to hurdle to go below, or when coming topsides.

Also, anywhere that the water isn't warm enough to comfortably swim in, some version of built in "inside" steering is mandatory IMO. Be it a motor sailor, Raised Saloon, Pilot House, or Hard Dodger with or without soft extensions. There's good reason such is the norm on professional work boats. Would that more "yachts" had such features!!!

I'd LUV to own a performance catamaran with an inside steering station, & the visibility from inside to properly use it. That, along with an autopilot with a remote that let me steer from anywhere aft of the mast.

[Joli]

A 3 foot taller mast shouldn't require more ballast but will may require new chainplates and the landing points on the mast for shrouds will move. Probably easier and cheaper to buy a new rig.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Firstly, Dockhead, thank you for the exceedingly kind words. Now, as to the topic at hand...



Not to argue, but I clearly stated in what wind ranges the noted SADR's are relevent to. And unless a boat has a particularly slippery hull form, they're fairly accurate.

Dockhead, note that you yourself now state (& often in the past have stated) that in winds of under 10kts, your boat's no speedster. And that in light airs, your engine often gets switched on. Me, I generally prefer to sail 95%+ of the time, including in winds of 3kts.

Yes, there are drawbacks & caveats to having a lot of sail power. Thus since no wind ranges were stated by the OP, I delineated my answers fairly clearly. Were I to sail primarily where sub-10kt winds were a rarity, I wouldn't be exceedingly concerned with a high SADR. As yes, then such a boat has sails, a rig, & keel which are something of a waste of coin which could be better spent elsewhere. Like on rum, women, & fast cars


EDIT: Within reason (keeping boats structurally sound) I love the trend towards more Raised Saloon (faux pilot house) designs, & catamarans. It's great to easily be able to see outside when under sail or at anchor. Especially as while they're pretty to look at, & have great joinery, older Swans are fairly cave like down below. And you have to climb fully 2m up a ladder to get a view of what's going on outside. Along with their crazy "companionway" designs.


Also, anywhere that the water isn't warm enough to comfortably swim in, some version of built in "inside" steering is mandatory IMO. Be it a motor sailor, Raised Saloon, Pilot House, or Hard Dodger with or without soft extensions. There's good reason such is the norm on professional work boats. Would that more "yachts" had such features!!!

I don't think we have any significant disagreement.

I would just add one small point -- that a boat with a bigger SA/D than is appropriate to the latitude is not just a waste of money. It will perform worse. Because a reefed big sail, especially a headsail, is much worse than an unreefed sail which is appropriate for the wind range. And even if you switch down to a smaller sail, a bigger mast than you need is more windage, higher up, which is bad.

My boat is not made for <10 knots, and I use the iron genny for going downwind in such conditions. But with the wind ahead of the beam, she is not bad at all in light wind. That's because she's fairly light and has a fairly slick underbody, and I have good sails. I am good for 2/3 to 3/4 of the true wind speed right down to 5 knots or so of wind, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam and I'm not hard on the wind. In such conditions, the racing boats will start to get by me, but practically no cruising boats, unless the wind is behind the beam, but I'll have the motor on by then, ha ha.

And sailing in <10 knot is just not really in the job description for boats in 50N and above anyway. The mean wind speed around here is F5. Under F3 is pretty rare, and if it's less than F3, it's usually going to be a dead calm under a high pressure dome, where you need to motor anyway.

[Scout 30]

Great designer & an awesome boat! I'd live with the boat as is for a while before making any changes. Personally, I'd leave the rig alone & just add the gennaker if it doesn't have one. All boats are a compromise and this seems like a good one.

https://www.quantumsails.com/en/reso...t-code-0-sails

[foufou]

I added a taller mast not because I wanted better performance but because it was the mast that came with the boat. the wooden spar had been scrapped and the PO had found this new/used mast. It is 5' taller and deck stepped where the original had been keel stepped. After worrying over this problem I went ahead. I did move chainplates which is not all that difficult and added a solent stay. So with a ketch and numerous sail options it is all good. Slightly better in light wind and douse one sail earlier. I my case it turns out that the lighter aluminum mast will be an improvement with less wronging moment as well as less pitching. Under canvassed in light wind is no fun

[Sailorbob8599]

Why reinvent the wheel or, in this case, re design the vessel? Surely if the same boat was produced in two versions, (one with a taller spar), the logical thing to do would be to inquire as to what (if any) changes were made to ballast etc. - as discussed in Dockhead's comments. There must be information available in records somewhere.

[hellosailor]

I'm thinking that adding a sleeve and an extension to the mast are going to raise questions when you try to sell the boat, and come back to bite you. Have you spoken to any sailmakers about just changing the sails? Adding more roach, changing the cut, battens, all sorts of ways that might add almost as much sail area without using that scary "sleeve" word.

Not to mention, if it has the usual old sails, simply going to a high quality set of new sails will give it more performance than any other mod, and do it painlessly.

[AiniA]

Thanks for the comments, they are helping me with my thinking. I have rejected the higher mast idea based on an informal cost/benefit analysis. I am not looking to change this boat into a downwind flyer, just to make it a somewhat better sailor when winds are in the 7 to 15 knot range.

If we went this route we would be pleased to have the chance to cruise in the Channel and beyond for a few years. We are quite experienced (five year circumnavigation finished a couple of years ago) but will have to get used to dealing with high tidal ranges. The boat actually has 'legs' for when the harbour drives out. My understanding is that Schengen applies to the people and not the boat - so we would leave the boat in France or Holland while we went back to Canada for a number of months to reset the clock.

We shall see what happens.