Hank on vs. furler for Solent stay

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Would like to know how the lever got detached. I use one and to release tension would require lifting a steel ring up about a foot to clear the lever. Once tension releases the lever is still attached to the deck fitting even if the stay is now slack a little. . The problem could be that the resulting shaking might cause the big pin securing the lever to the deck, to shake out since it is held in place only by a ball detent mechanism. I think I will switch that to something mre foolproof, but it still must be doable without tools.

Doug

g'Day Doug,

Reasonable question! In our case, because the lever was below the furler drum, I had to shorten the tensioning handle and thus lost the use of the securing ring. Used a velcro strap instead. Worked fine for some years, but that day it came off and the lever popped open. The hook attachment to the deck fitting then flogged off and the SHTF. Rather expensive lesson, that!

Jim

[barnakiel]

The structural ones are used just like the Code 0 one (but unlike a gennaker or spinaker top down system works).

The main difference from other furlers is there is no jib halyard. That is to say, the halyard hoists the whole thing up (just like code 0 hoist).

So the structural ones are exactly like Code 0 furler, except are built for sails that fall between the forestay and the mast. The LAST sail used remains on and becomes the structural forestay (1,2,3, etc). Unless the mast needs a support at this point, the whole thing can be cleared away and stacked.

Off course: if one wants, the sail can be dropped and a bare torsion cable hoisted. However, if the last sail in use was a heavy jib or storm sail, there is no such need.

As far as a sail upwind trim is concerned - the shape is a killer, it is not related to the furler, only to the sail cut. And there is no foil to disturb the flow. The sail is fitted around the cable, so the 'foil' shape is actually close to something NACA.

I have seen heaps of them (IMOCA, VOR, 40, Mini) and used some (facnors) on an Open 40 boat. CREAM. Karvers are very nice too.

Cheers,
nick

[Boston Blackie]

For continuing our exploration of Newfoundland, we are repurposing our Harken Mark II Unit 1.5 Headsail furler, which is undersize for our boat sailing offshore when used to reef our 115% Yankee, to live on the inner forestay to reef and furl our 9 oz genoa staysail. The staysail and storm staysail hanks will be replaced with #6 luff tape, and the old Hyfield lever stay will be replaced with a permanent inner forestay.

We are noodling the best choice for a new headsail reefer/furler. Does anyone have experience with either the Harken Mark IV Unit 2 twin groove swiveling tack and head eye reefer/furler vs the less expensive Harken ESP Unit 2? The latter has just a single foil slot, and head and tack eyes fixed to the slot. Our Yankee has 3 flattening luff ropes stitched into separate pockets and remains very flat and effective even when reefed to the second line (% 100%LP) with swiveling eyes as on the Mark II and Mark IV systems. Any idea how much fixed eyes will degrade reefed and furled shape?

Thoughts?

[UNCIVILIZED]

There's a recent thread where a member was soliciting feedback on Harken's ESP furler. Might bear looking into it. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ce-191333.html

As to your plan for moving your current furler to the staysail, are you aware that in a storm or just high winds, a staysail & it's stay can see loads on par with those of the headstay? If you know the sail's area, it's easy to do the math for various wind speeds & see --> Harken Sailboat Hardware and Accessories And consider too that the stay, etc. will also be seeing significant shock loads due to the waves that go with higher winds.

[Boston Blackie]

Good thoughts Unciv! I will also look into the relative strength of the old Mark II Unit 1.5 and the two Unit II foil extrusions. I suspect the full area storm staysail would stress the system much less than the genoa staysail reefed down to rhe same size, due to torsion and excess draft.

The main driver for upgrading the furler system is the benefit of minimizing foredeck
time in gnarly seas with an appropriate staysail furler, and the benefit of added spool diameter and reefing/ furling torque for the Yankee and #4. The existing furler drum is certainly adequate to furl and even moderately reef staysails.

[Boston Blackie]

I will also add luff grommets to the staysails as on our #4 for security lacings around the foil.

[double u]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

As to your plan for moving your current furler to the staysail, are you aware that in a storm or just high winds, a staysail & it's stay can see loads on par with those of the headstay?

amazingly people have to be told this fact again & again! & still one sees so many staysails on furlers just "right" for their sailarea!
it does not take higher mathematics or counterintuitive logic to see, that for a given stability of a boat considerably more force can be generated by a small sail with a low CE than by a big genoa with a much higher CE, what with the low CE's of a reefed main & a staysail furled to stormjib-size: the boat will remain balanced at a far higher heel-angle than under full sail, the CE being not only further down but also much further inboard at the same heelangle, (& most often also further forward to boot). plain logic tells us that, & we have had this verified by real-life experience more often than we would have liked...

[Zzmeyer]

I went with roller furling genoa and roller furling staysail on my Beneteau Sense 50. Pain to tack around staysail, but the staysail is on deck and ready to go. I have never partially furled my genoa. Staysail and furled main very efficient in a blow. An identical boat went with a 100 percent jib and a code zero with UV stripe. Based on where and how I sail I might wish I'd gone with that arrangement. I have an asymmetrical with a sock but at 2000 square feet it is a beast.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So it kind of begs the question of whether a hanked-on sail would perform better. Anyone know?

I don't think there is a lot in it. I think there is a small theoretical advantage to a thin foil, bit in practise it probably doesn't amount to much (if anything) given that one design fleets like the j24 can use either and their doesn't seem to be any speed advantage to the foil.

A bigger furler foil may be slightly worse, but not by any noticable amount. One downside of hanks is the extra halyard tension needed to keep the luff tight, though again this doesn't seem to hurt much as long as the draft stays in the right place.

I will lool up what Peirre Gutelle (sp?) says in his yacht design book when I get home in a few days. I don't recall any significant advantages to any profile according to the old IOR era research.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by double u

amazingly people have to be told this fact again & again! & still one sees so many staysails on furlers just "right" for their sailarea!
it does not take higher mathematics or counterintuitive logic to see, that for a given stability of a boat considerably more force can be generated by a small sail with a low CE than by a big genoa with a much higher CE, what with the low CE's of a reefed main & a staysail furled to stormjib-size: the boat will remain balanced at a far higher heel-angle than under full sail, the CE being not only further down but also much further inboard at the same heelangle, (& most often also further forward to boot). plain logic tells us that, & we have had this verified by real-life experience more often than we would have liked...

Thanks for explaining this. It would not have occurred to me, but now I see the logic.

I'll be more careful with my running backstays in future

[jls095]

Originally Posted by double u

amazingly people have to be told this fact again & again! & still one sees so many staysails on furlers just "right" for their sailarea!
it does not take higher mathematics or counterintuitive logic to see, that for a given stability of a boat considerably more force can be generated by a small sail with a low CE than by a big genoa with a much higher CE, what with the low CE's of a reefed main & a staysail furled to stormjib-size: the boat will remain balanced at a far higher heel-angle than under full sail, the CE being not only further down but also much further inboard at the same heelangle, (& most often also further forward to boot). plain logic tells us that, & we have had this verified by real-life experience more often than we would have liked...

Yeah this is a really good point. I'm leaning towards a Harken MK-IV Unit 1 furler for the Solent. While I don't really need the features of the MK-IV over the ESP model, the MK-IV will fit better under the drum for the genoa furler. The stays will only be 10 inches apart.

How does one properly tension a Solent rig? I assume load needs to be split between the headstay and Solent stay to avoid overloading the backstay.

[double u]

...was extremely pronounced on our fin-&-skeg 37' Vaton:
full gen (50m²) & main(30m²): boat quite "hardmouthed" @+18° heel, Atoms wv hardly coping
reefed jib (~10m²)+triple reefed main (+12m²): >30° heel handled well by Atoms wv with tiller centered (heavy going!!!)

[charliehows]

My current boat came to me with a furling genoa. It had some smaller jibs so I fitted a second forestay for the 'hankies'. Over the years I've gotten lazier about reloading the genoa to the point that it hasnt been up the furler for a couple of years now. I thought about snipping the hanks off my hard working jib so it could run off the furler, but I actually find it more convenient running it hanked. It seems counter intuitive that a furling sail should be less convenient than a hanked on sail but I find it to be so. One of the big considerations for me is that, when not in use, the jib is safely stored below decks – no sun damage, no chance of it getting loose in a storm. Also when I drop the jib I can unhook the forestay and move the whole thing out of the way of the anchor winch without unhanking the jib.

[ScottMeilicke]

We have a ketch with a solent hank on behind our 135 Genoa on a furler. When not needed the hyfield lever on the solent attaches to a short length of line tied to one of our chain plates. The line was just the right length to keep the solent wire taught and not bang around when not in use.

The biggest issue I had was after the hank on was down, putting the solent away and attaching the hyfield to the line was very difficult in anything other than a dead calm. So my advice is if you go with a detachable solent, ensure it is really easy to put away under sail when the deck is moving. The weight of the solent cable whipping around can be tough to deal with.

An easily adjustable length line would work well I think, I just haven’t tried it yet.

[rgleason]

This is an excellent discussion.

I am trying to improve our use of an existing dyneema removeable solent and improve our headsails with new, after 14 years. I'd like to have better clew leads more inboard for upwind improvement.

Summer we use genoa almost exclusively. We normally switch that for a 90% jib spring and fall.
Ocassionally we use the 90% on a solent, but it is led to the rail track and is close to being to large to bring the clew inboard of the cap shroud, particularly on the solent. In this position on the solent and sheeted to the track the sheeting angle is quite wide, so while it is a better sail in heavy wind, we need to get it sheeted in better!

Our 13 yr old North 3DL 140% finally delaminated last year and we decided on a Hood 135% vectran and have been happy with it. The big decision is coming up as the North 3DL 90% has not yet delaminated (I really have liked these sails!), and I need to get this jib right with good sheeting and barberhaul control.

I've decided to make both the genoa and jib luff length to fit the solent and to have #6 bolt rope for furler on bowsprit and grommets just behind for soft hanks, so the can be interchangeable.

There are three problems/issues.

1. Size of this jib to fit on the solent and miss the spreader when sheeted inboard of the cap shroud. Yet I have concern that going from a 90% to 87% jib is actually going to be quite noticeable.

2. How to sheet this jib in without another track right where we traverse. Considering two padeyes or rope padeyes as attachment points. Considering a centerline barberhauler too. Similar to Dockhead's description.

3. How to optimize the solent deployment and improve the line itself. Currently it is fixed at 18" below the shrouds, along with the in mast halyard pulley lead to a winch. The solent stay is lead down to a heavy track and ball bearing slider I designed with Garhauer, with a small stainless steel drum around which the solent is wrapped and jam cleated. Then the slider is pulled forward with a 4 part pulley to tighten the solent. The headstay can be made slack with this arrangement and it lands about 1' behind the foil.

I was very intrigued by the two part halyard/solent stay idea detailed earlier, but the existing arrangement is good.

I am also familiar with a very simple 4 part dyneema padeye/thimbles led to a winch for tightening the solent stay. However I think the solent stay actually just needs replacement.

I've been trying to determine what padeyes to use on the deck for the jib, there are many choices, and I need to distribute the loads too. Besides those questions, I want to locate these attachment points in the best places, yet the jib will be in two positions, the roller furler and the solent. How should I be solving this problem? Furthermore sheeting angle to the railing track is about 16 - 17 degrees, yet 12-13 degrees might be better.

Are there any suggestions/considerations for this arrangement?

Boat is 32' Sloop, cca Ted Hood design.