Heavy weather running backstays

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Adelie

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/passport-42

The existing backstay fine for the masthead.

The intermediate aft shrouds are fine for moderate to heavy conditions.

If it were my boat and I expected very heavy conditions I would want a jumper or running back stays to support the inner forestay.

Westsail32 has jumpers.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/westsail-32

It looks the same as the west sail. Is the correct term "check stay", "intermediate aft shroud", or "jumper"?

This is the problem I am trying to solve. The check stays are good for most conditions. It is my understanding they are not good for very heavy conditions. While the mast is down I can easily add a "running stay". I'm not trying to replace the check stays, I'm trying to add to them for heavy weather.

Planning on heavy cruising later, so I'm trying to make sure I'm set up for heavy weather. In theory if I have it, and it's easy to deploy, I won't need it!

I may be getting terms mixed. Is the stay sail running backstays, "running stays", "jumpers", or also "running back stays"?

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Sometimes the term "Checkstay" is used in a different, (incorrect,) context.

Picture a cutter rig; A headstay between stemhead and masthead, a backstay between masthead and stern, and a forestay for the staysail from a location aft of the stem to some point on the mast that's lower than the masthead.

Many boats with that rig have, (and it's really a shroud,) a wire going from where the forestay attaches to the mast down to another chainplate or deck pad-eye that's just aft of the aft lower shroud.

While such a wire does add some athwartships stability to the mast it also increases compression with very little added to fore-an-aft mast stability, basically it becomes another aft-lower shroud that's higher than the "real" aft- lower.

Better practice is to use that chainplate/deck fitting as a forward termination for the running backs.

The runners can "store" there, and their tackles can be adjusted as needed for tension, and when really needed to support the forestay they can be lead aft to their attachment device and tensioned as needed.

As an aside, and a tip; Generally runners are fitted with 3>4:1 tackles, place the upper blocks at a height that is above your head when the runners are in their forward/stowed position, but still within easy reach.

Have the blocks reeved so that the tail exits from the upper block.

That might save a cracked skull,, but of equal importance you want to be able to let the lower block over the side so that with its shackle it can be used as a lifting device to hoist something, (or someone,) out of the water, and having the upper block up higher will allow that load to be lifted over the lifelines.

Bullseye! This is the situation. Exactly what I was looking to find. Exactly describes my concern.

What is the correct terms for this "shroud"? Is "checkstay" correct? Part of the difficulty is not having the correct terms. Is it runners or running backs? It's a sailboat, I know they have to have a different name than a running back stay used for the masthead.

If I leave the check stays/shrouds in place, can I simply add a extra tang at the same place for the runners. May go with a double cheeky block. I'm thinking I should use the runners in anything over 25kts

Looking at the other posts it doesn't look like I need running backstays to the mast head, would overcomplicate things. However the big race boats use a combined setup that attaches at the masthead, and the stay sail, backing up both when tensioned. I'm not racing, and this is all for heavy weather sailing. I don't want complicated, people generally don't use anything if it's complicated or difficult.

Thank you for the details on the runners. That will help.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

You have the gyst of it. I used to call them intermediate backstays, But that's not the correct term. Found out they're called "check stays" recently. Not really 100% that that's the correct term either

They attach to the mast at the same point the staysail forestay. On deck they're just aft of the aft lower shroud. They back up/reinforce the staysail.

Yeah, I said that term, (checkstay,) was incorrect as pertaining to a wire that runs from the point where the staysail attaches to the mast, down to a point just aft of the aft-lower shroud.
My understanding is that "stays" run from mast to somewhere fore-an-aft, and "shrouds" run from mast to the sides of the boat.
Stays offer fore/aft support, shrouds are for side-to-side support.
And yes, I've heard the term "ckeckstay" used in the way you describe it, and also the term "intermediate backstay" used,, but are they really "stays"?
In response to an earlier post, the only time I've ever seen a "running backstay" that goes to the masthead was on either a gaff rigged boat, or, on a fractional rig to counter the force of a spinnaker/free-flying jib that was hoisted from a block at the masthead.
One poster showed a diagram where the term "checkstay" was used for a wire that "checked" the motion of a mast that had "prebend" in it,, and I believe that is the proper term for that wire,, at least that term was being used 50 years ago in descriptions of racing boats
Racing boats have all kinds of wires running everywhere to control mast shape, but most of that stuff, along with "bendy" masts have no place on a cruising boat.
On a cruising boat you want a mast section that will "stand-up straight" under most conditions, only needing runners to prevent "pumping" of the mast in heavy weather under staysail.
In regards to the OP, I too was confused as to what he was really trying to describe,, semantics/terminology can get in the way sometimes.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Because the backstay attached to the top will not counter the forces of the staysail attached lower down in heavy weather. This can lead to the mast being bent unduly lower down (usually around the top spreader. That's why many cutter-rigs have also running backstays. I doubt it's necessary for a bermuda-rig.

To the original poster: Instead of blindly trying to improve random facets, talk to an expert what makes most sense for your boat.

The OP was talking about a running backstay from the masthead in conjunction with a checkstay at stay'sl height. The above post confirms that.
To the OP: some racers today have runners AND checkstays (I just made a set like that today), because they lack a fixed backstay at all; the flat-top mainsails they affect (honestly, why not just have a gaff already?) preclude a permanent backstay.
Some have running backstays with deflectors that turn them into checkstays when using different sail configurations. None of these should concern a cruising boat with a fixed backstay: simple runners (or checks, it's interchangeable unless you're a truly insufferable nerd) to offset the pull of the staysl in heavy weather will suffice.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Running backs are to support the mast at the point where and fractional or inner forestay attach.

Checks stays attach lower between any forestay and the base of the mast and are intended to straighten a prebent mast so the main is fuller on a reach or run.

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thr.../#post-2623660Attachment 248071

https://www.sailingworld.com/mainsai...r-performance/

That helps. Found this picture, shows the checkstay, and runners with the staysail. I can see why what I have is difficult to identify and called a checkstay.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

If I leave the check stays/shrouds in place, can I simply add a extra tang at the same place for the runners.

Yep,, no problem, the "running backstays/runners", (the same thing,) might be able to use the same mast attachment device, (bolt/tang/pad-eye, whatever, and, if that "other wire" ends at a turnbuckle/chainplate, it may be possible to replace the turnbuckle pin with a shackle, (like a heavy "D" shackle", and presto, you have your forward attachment point to store the runners when they're not needed.
Note, generally the lower ends of the blocks on a running backstay will be rigged with snap-shackles, don't skimp on size, if you need them in heavy weather their will be a lot of force involved from the staysail.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

That helps. Found this picture, shows the checkstay, and runners with the staysail. I can see why what I have is difficult to identify and called a checkstay. Attachment 248105

Poor diagram. Cutter stay is an inner forestay.


Backstay is fixed rigging and holds the mast from falling forward at all times.

Running backstays (aka runners) are running rigging and are set when there is extra forward load on the mast when the inner forestay is drawing hard. They are set on both side of the boat. Also damps out pumping. Running back stays generally need intermediate shrouds that run over the spreaders and attach to both sides of the mast at the same elevation as the inner forestay.
If they anchor at the stern of the boat, and there is no boom topping lift, they can be left set thru tacks and gybes once the boat is reefed deeply enough that the head of the mainsail is below the attachment point for the running backs. I would specifically have the 2nd reef be this deep so that I wouldn't need to mess with the running backs for 2nd, 3rd & even 4th reefs if you have it. The mast is probably fine without additional aft support to inner forestay elevation even when there is a single reef in the sail.

An alternative to running backstays and intermediate shrouds are aft intermediate shrouds. They are fixed rigging which do not require adjustment underway. They run down the mast on both sides straight from hound elevation to aft chainplates on both sides. They have make an acute angle to the mast both laterally and fore and aft so they experience relatively high loads and impose significant additional compression load on the mast.

Another alternative is jumper struts and shrouds. The struts project forward and out to both sides of the mast so they carry both transverse and longitudinal loads. These are also fixed rigging that don't need adjustment underway.

Babystays are used used on boats with sweptback spreaders and counteract the aft lowers and do not carry sails. Forward lowers would interfere with sheeting jibs in a tight so a babystay is sometimes used instead. The tradeoff is increased interference with gybing a spinnaker pole.

Check stays are intended to shape a relatively bendy and usually pre-bent mast. Like running backstays they are on each side of the mast as they have to be swapped at each tack or gybe.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Poor diagram. Cutter stay is an inner forestay.





Backstay is fixed rigging and holds the mast from falling forward at all times.



Running backstays (aka runners) are running rigging and are set when there is extra forward load on the mast when the inner forestay is drawing hard. They are set on both side of the boat. Also damps out pumping. Running back stays generally need intermediate shrouds that run over the spreaders and attach to both sides of the mast at the same elevation as the inner forestay.

If they anchor at the stern of the boat, and there is no boom topping lift, they can be left set thru tacks and gybes once the boat is reefed deeply enough that the head of the mainsail is below the attachment point for the running backs. I would specifically have the 2nd reef be this deep so that I wouldn't need to mess with the running backs for 2nd, 3rd & even 4th reefs if you have it. The mast is probably fine without additional aft support to inner forestay elevation even when there is a single reef in the sail.



An alternative to running backstays and intermediate shrouds are aft intermediate shrouds. They are fixed rigging which do not require adjustment underway. They run down the mast on both sides straight from hound elevation to aft chainplates on both sides. They have make an acute angle to the mast both laterally and fore and aft so they experience relatively high loads and impose significant additional compression load on the mast.



Another alternative is jumper struts and shrouds. The struts project forward and out to both sides of the mast so they carry both transverse and longitudinal loads. These are also fixed rigging that don't need adjustment underway.



Babystays are used used on boats with sweptback spreaders and counteract the aft lowers and do not carry sails. Forward lowers would interfere with sheeting jibs in a tight so a babystay is sometimes used instead. The tradeoff is increased interference with gybing a spinnaker pole.



Check stays are intended to shape a relatively bendy and usually pre-bent mast. Like running backstays they are on each side of the mast as they have to be swapped at each tack or gybe.

Thank you. That visual helps a lot

They are intermediate aft shrouds. I will add a runner to this.

Are checkstays only for shape then? Is there any value added having a check stay or deflector with the runner. I'm not into racing, thinking heavy weather. There is an argument for adding performance to go faster to escape bad weather, but not at the expense of complication or making the normal sail controls difficult or painful

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Westsail32 has jumpers.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/westsail-32

Jeepers, that drawing of a W32 is unlike any W32 I've ever seen, perhaps it was an early iteration from W.I.B. Crealock whilst presenting various versions/options to Westsail.
To my knowledge their was never a 32, (from the factory,) that had jumpers.
The mix of rectangular and round ports would not have appeared on any 32 either, unless it was a custom order by the buyer before the boat moved very far on the production line.
Ok, back to regular programming,,.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

Thank you. That visual helps a lot

They are intermediate aft shrouds. I will add a runner to this.

Are checkstays only for shape then? Is there any value added having a check stay or deflector with the runner. I'm not into racing, thinking heavy weather. There is an argument for adding performance to go faster to escape bad weather, but not at the expense of complication or making the normal sail controls difficult or painful

Check stays are 90% for shape control. If you don't have a bendy spaghettis mast, don't waste your money. The performance improvement are on the order of a second per mile for a bendy mast, less for a regular mast.

If you want to outrun storms you need a pretty light boat of 60' length or more.

If you go with running backs, I would set up intermediate shrouds that run over the spreader ends. Intermediate aft shrouds are much easier to install, but because of their very acute angle to the mast, are highly loaded.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "There is an argument for adding performance to go faster to escape bad weather..."

Once you are at hull speed, "adding performance" is a delusion. In "bad weather" in the open sea you won't be able to run away from anything. Your job as skipper is to keep the boat SAFE till the weather passes over. That's not done by adding complexity to the rigging in order to attain perhaps another 1/2knot of VOG.

TP

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Jeepers, that drawing of a W32 is unlike any W32 I've ever seen, perhaps it was an early iteration from W.I.B. Crealock whilst presenting various versions/options to Westsail.
To my knowledge their was never a 32, (from the factory,) that had jumpers.
The mix of rectangular and round ports would not have appeared on any 32 either, unless it was a custom order by the buyer before the boat moved very far on the production line.
Ok, back to regular programming,,.

Wouldn't surprise me if most people did something different than a jumper. My understanding is that the jumper was the original design. One of the resident NAs at GOB made mention of this some years ago if I recall correctly.

[JohnHolland]

Mine are amsteel and run off the mast either side of the staysail tang, through blocks at the stern, back to the jib sheet winches for tensioning.

When not in use they go down alongside the aft shrouds, through snap shackles and back to the stern blocks to avoid the maintain and ease of deployment.

I only use them in strong winds, only the side opposite to the side the staysail is sheeted on.

They interfere with the top of the mainsail when it is full but clear when it's reefed during strong winds.

Hope this makes sense

[JohnHolland]

To avoid 'mainsail' not 'maintain'

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by JohnHolland

Mine are amsteel and run off the mast either side of the staysail tang, through blocks at the stern, back to the jib sheet winches for tensioning.



When not in use they go down alongside the aft shrouds, through snap shackles and back to the stern blocks to avoid the maintain and ease of deployment.



I only use them in strong winds, only the side opposite to the side the staysail is sheeted on.



They interfere with the top of the mainsail when it is full but clear when it's reefed during strong winds.



Hope this makes sense

Perfect thank you. It made sense. How strong are the winds when you set them?

Thank everyone for the info. Was very helpful. I'm glad I asked this on the forum, I have a good guideline for my next steps forward on this.