Heavy weather running backstays

[alaskanviking]

I have the mast down for some work and paint. I have been looking at a few rigging upgrades. Passport 42/Slocum 43 Cutter masthead rig. I currently have checkstays (I believe this is the correct term) to back up the staysail. Checkstays aren't the best solution during heavy weather.

I'm thinking about adding running backstays to the check stays when the weather gets bad. Fairly easy to do with the mast down. Thinking of having these in the stowed position or partially taken down until they're needed.

A few questions

1) Is this worth my time? It would be easy to set up right now but is the juice worth the squeeze here?

2) would I set these up like the big race boats, where the masthead and staysail points are connected at the upper block? Some have an adjustment mechanism to tighten the staysail back stay when it's needed. Would it be better to use 2 separate running backstays, one for the masthead, one for the staysail, to use as needed? That one seems complicated.

3) do I only use a running backstay for the staysail? In theory if the weather is that bad I'd really only be the staysail or storm sail on the staysail stay.

4) use a removable socket or cheeky block connection to the mast so the running backstay is completely removable. I admit there is some big plusses/cons with this. Running backstay would be out of the way unless needed, but I'd have to climb the mast to put them up, which is usually uncomfortable by the time you decide you need to add running backstays or other heavy weather preps. Although that probably includes adding a storm sail as well.

[Rucksta]

If your running rigging is textile a pad eye on deck just aft of the cap shrouds secures them out of the way.

[rbk]

We have running backs. They are for the staysail only. Main reason is to stop the mast from pumping when running with the staysail. The pull of the staysail while running keeps tugging forward on the mast and can get it moving pretty good. Ours run back to reinforced pad eyes on the deck with fid blocks with cams and snap shackle for easy tension and removal as when in use it interferes with the boom. Went all amsteel when we re-rigged a couple years ago, much better than the cable we removed. It is also nice to have the two extra sets of full blocks available for various reasons.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

I have the mast down for some work and paint. I have been looking at a few rigging upgrades. Passport 42/Slocum 43 Cutter masthead rig. I currently have checkstays (I believe this is the correct term) to back up the staysail. Checkstays aren't the best solution during heavy weather.

I'm thinking about adding running backstays to the check stays when the weather gets bad. Fairly easy to do with the mast down. Thinking of having these in the stowed position or partially taken down until they're needed.

......

So what problem are you trying to solve and why don't the check stays solve it? Check stays reduce the mast from pumping in rough seas. What more do you need?

[Benz]

If you have a fixed backstay, why do you desire a running one as well?

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by Benz

If you have a fixed backstay, why do you desire a running one as well?

Because the backstay attached to the top will not counter the forces of the staysail attached lower down in heavy weather. This can lead to the mast being bent unduly lower down (usually around the top spreader. That's why many cutter-rigs have also running backstays. I doubt it's necessary for a bermuda-rig.

To the original poster: Instead of blindly trying to improve random facets, talk to an expert what makes most sense for your boat.

[zstine]

I think we need to define the terms we are using and the problem the OP is trying to solve.

My definition/understanding of Check stays are not full mast height, removable/adjustable stays used to stabilize the mast and prevent pumping. A running backstay is typically mast head/full height with a port and starboard side and adjustable used to counter forestay loads. I don't know which term is correct in a non-mast head stay that is opposite an inner cutter stay for tension that inner stay. Physically, this can be exactly identical to a check stay but its purpose is slightly different in that it counters inner forestay tension. When I added a cutter stay, my check stays (unchanged) were used to counter cutter stay tension. Did that change them to running "backstays"?


I don't understand the OP's problem and don't see his proposal as an 'upgrade' at all..? FWIW, when I added a cutter to my '75 Tartan 41, I just used the check stays as running backs when the cutter was flown. these stays all terminated near the upper spreader (2 spreader rig). The check stay's turning blocks were shackled to the tow rail using a quick release shackle. When not in use they were shackled mid-ship just aft the main shrouds. when in use the turning block was shackled near the stern and tensioned with my secondary winch (on windward side only of course). My understanding of terms is these were 'running backs' when flying the cutter sail, but just 'check stays' when the cutter sail was not flown....?

[TrentePieds]

Whyever would you want to add complexity to the proven rig of a proven boat?

I think you can take for granted that Stan Huntingford knew what he was about when he designed this boat. He always did :-)!

If you were a dead keen racing type having already reduced all scantlings to the very limit of what is safe, there might be some merit in what you are proposing. But if you were a dead keen racing type, you wouldn't own this boat in the first place. The mere fact that you own a boat such as this sez that you are a cruising type. The fact that you are fretting about whether she will stand up to "bad weather" sez to me that you need to put a bit of time into understanding the design criteria for rigs and their required scantlings as well as into researching efficacious means of reefing when and as required. "Efficacious" in this context means as SIMPLE as possible! As for the mast "buckling": It won't! Stan made sure the cross section of the extrusion and the wall thickness is quite adequate for anything you will meet in your travels.

This boat will take better care of you at sea than you can of her — provided you let her :-)!

Set up your reefing so that when she exceeds 15º of heel, you can "come down a tad" to the point where she only heels 8º or 10º. Then, as the wind comes up further, she'll come back up to 15ºof heel. And then you reduce "a tad more". Until you get the "feel" for it, your clinometer is your friend!

If I were running before in this boat in any kind of wind, the sort of wind that if I was on a beam reach I'd be wearing a double reefed main and the staysl to keep her heel in the 10º to 15º range, I would furl the main, run up a #3 jib and then douse the staysl. Your backstay is dimensioned to take it!

Conservative, I know, but simple and safe!

All the best :-)!

TrentePieds

[Adelie]

Running backs are to support the mast at the point where and fractional or inner forestay attach.

Checks stays attach lower between any forestay and the base of the mast and are intended to straighten a prebent mast so the main is fuller on a reach or run.

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thr.../#post-2623660

https://www.sailingworld.com/mainsai...r-performance/

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

I have the mast down for some work and paint. I have been looking at a few rigging upgrades. Passport 42/Slocum 43 Cutter masthead rig. I currently have checkstays (I believe this is the correct term) to back up the staysail. Checkstays aren't the best solution during heavy weather.

I'm thinking about adding running backstays to the check stays when the weather gets bad. Fairly easy to do with the mast down. Thinking of having these in the stowed position or partially taken down until they're needed.

A few questions

1) Is this worth my time? It would be easy to set up right now but is the juice worth the squeeze here?

2) would I set these up like the big race boats, where the masthead and staysail points are connected at the upper block? Some have an adjustment mechanism to tighten the staysail back stay when it's needed. Would it be better to use 2 separate running backstays, one for the masthead, one for the staysail, to use as needed? That one seems complicated.

3) do I only use a running backstay for the staysail? In theory if the weather is that bad I'd really only be the staysail or storm sail on the staysail stay.

4) use a removable socket or cheeky block connection to the mast so the running backstay is completely removable. I admit there is some big plusses/cons with this. Running backstay would be out of the way unless needed, but I'd have to climb the mast to put them up, which is usually uncomfortable by the time you decide you need to add running backstays or other heavy weather preps. Although that probably includes adding a storm sail as well.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/passport-42

The existing backstay fine for the masthead.

The intermediate aft shrouds are fine for moderate to heavy conditions.

If it were my boat and I expected very heavy conditions I would want a jumper or running back stays to support the inner forestay.

Westsail32 has jumpers.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/westsail-32

If you decide on running backs there are 2 options for bottom end location:

1: if you do NOT have a boom topping lift (boom gallows or hard boom vang) you can’t take the to the back corners of the boat where they will clear the boom. Once the head of the main is below the top of running backs, you will not need to tighten on and slack the other during tacks and gybes. I would thing about making the 2nd reef point deep enough that this happens.

2. If you have a topping lift then at the back corners, or one each side near the front of the cockpit so it is convenient to a winch.

[Jim Cate]

1: if you do NOT have a boom topping lift (boom gallows or hard boom vang) you can’t take the to the back corners of the boat where they will clear the boom.

Adelie, could you explain this a bit, please? We use a spring vang to support the boom when the sail is down and our runners go to the transom and clear the boom, and work fine for us.

Ours is a fractional rig with swept back spreaders, so the runners are important for us. I don't quite see how this is very different from the requirements for runner location for the OP's boat.

Jim

[Adelie]

Oops, CAN take the runners to the back corners.
I’m on my phone at work, or at least that’s my excuse.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Oops, CAN take the runners to the back corners.
I’m on my phone at work, or at least that’s my excuse.

Understood! Damn phones...

Jim

[Bowdrie]

Sometimes the term "Checkstay" is used in a different, (incorrect,) context.
Picture a cutter rig; A headstay between stemhead and masthead, a backstay between masthead and stern, and a forestay for the staysail from a location aft of the stem to some point on the mast that's lower than the masthead.
Many boats with that rig have, (and it's really a shroud,) a wire going from where the forestay attaches to the mast down to another chainplate or deck pad-eye that's just aft of the aft lower shroud.
While such a wire does add some athwartships stability to the mast it also increases compression with very little added to fore-an-aft mast stability, basically it becomes another aft-lower shroud that's higher than the "real" aft- lower.
Better practice is to use that chainplate/deck fitting as a forward termination for the running backs.
The runners can "store" there, and their tackles can be adjusted as needed for tension, and when really needed to support the forestay they can be lead aft to their attachment device and tensioned as needed.
As an aside, and a tip; Generally runners are fitted with 3>4:1 tackles, place the upper blocks at a height that is above your head when the runners are in their forward/stowed position, but still within easy reach.
Have the blocks reeved so that the tail exits from the upper block.
That might save a cracked skull,, but of equal importance you want to be able to let the lower block over the side so that with its shackle it can be used as a lifting device to hoist something, (or someone,) out of the water, and having the upper block up higher will allow that load to be lifted over the lifelines.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by zstine

I think we need to define the terms we are using and the problem the OP is trying to solve.

My definition/understanding of Check stays are not full mast height, removable/adjustable stays used to stabilize the mast and prevent pumping. A running backstay is typically mast head/full height with a port and starboard side and adjustable used to counter forestay loads. I don't know which term is correct in a non-mast head stay that is opposite an inner cutter stay for tension that inner stay. Physically, this can be exactly identical to a check stay but its purpose is slightly different in that it counters inner forestay tension.

You have the gyst of it. I used to call them intermediate backstays, But that's not the correct term. Found out they're called "check stays" recently. Not really 100% that that's the correct term either

They attach to the mast at the same point the staysail forestay. On deck they're just aft of the aft lower shroud. They back up/reinforce the staysail.