High friction when winching 16mm lines

[UNCIVILIZED]

English not being your native tongue (1st language) was one of the things which ran through my mind when composing my other reply, but you're doing passably well as it is. The thing is that it's quite often difficult to explain things in a 2nd language when things are technical in nature. I have this happen to me when working on mechanical systems, or in describing them, in a language that I'm otherwise fluent in.

As to the issue at hand, yes, that halyard is a bit of a monster (overly thick) for the application. Especially since it's a 2:1 setup. So you could easily go a size or two smaller for it, & even further than that if you switch to a high modulus line such as something with a Dyneema core like Sampson's Warpspeed.

You'll also want to check the entry angle of the line where it meets the winch. Below is a link to the Harken website where they explain how a proper lead angle to the winch is configured. And curing your problem, or making less of one, could be as simple as fabricating an angled shim to be fitted in between the winch, & the aluminum mount on the mast.

For this, you could use marine plywood sealed with epoxy, some hardwood, or a piece of sheet composite material. Just as long as whatever you choose has; good compressive strength, is sealed or rot proof, & has good UV resistance. Harken Sailboat Hardware and Accessories

If the above doesn't make sense, let us know, & we'll try & provide more/better information. Oh, & is this a new problem for you with the boat? Meaning have you had her long enough to have been out sailing on her many times before without this issue coming up when hoisting the sail?
Either way, whether it's a new problem, or an old one, start eliminating one piece of hardware or component at a time as being the source of the problem (or not). Including seeing if this issue happens with the old halyard, & or, a thinner one.

And as already stated by another member, hoist the sail as far as you can by hand, prior to putting the halyard onto the winch. Which, to make hoistiing it easier, give the mast track a good cleaning, & do the same for the cars. This, along with using a tiny amount of dry, non petroleum based lubricant on the cars. One-Drop is what Harken suggests.

[Tartan 31]

Hello,

Recently, I ran into a similar situation with my main halyard and it was the plastic halyard exit gate on the mast. The gate should be smooth and rounded like a "U". However, upon removal, the plastic piece was worn into a "V" and acted like a cam cleat under load.

SeaDog products sell stainless steel halyard exits at a reasonable price in two different sizes.

Good luck!

[Cadence]

As a guess, from your description, the angle at which your line is addressing the winch is causing the bind?

[pgenovese]

What size of boat do you have ? I'm thinking that your halyard may be too thick.

Is it easy to hoist the sail by hand at least half way ? (no winch) It may be that you have excessive friction somewhere in the mast e.g. the sheaves (pulleys) where the halyard exits the mast.

Try attaching a light piece of line to the halyard end where it attaches to the head of the mainsail and pull the the halyard through the sheave by hand. there should be very little friction. Then try to manually apply a little bit of load and see how the situation changes. The line should still run smoothly through sheave and mast.

Has the halyard hardened due to salt/dirt deposits ? If so wash the lines properly ... leave them soak in fresh for a couple of days and change the water couple of times and wash them with mild detergent. This should wash out all the dirt and salt an make the line softer and easier to handle.

Hope this helps.

[Rorzech]

The halyard is just laying against against the winch. It would have helped if he took a close up of the winch looking down on it with the halyard wrapped around it 2 or 3 times.

[Suijin]

I don't understand this.

If the winch is loaded properly (clockwise wraps, from base to top), then if a crew member pulls on the line leading to the winch (and I assume that you meant out and away from the mast), they are forcing the bottom wrap tighter up against the next wrap.

Perhaps it's a language issue, but getting clarity on this point might help towards a diagnosis and solution.

[Jim Cate]

i wonder i it is that the self tailing mechanism is too small for the 16 mm diameter line? Have you tried manually tailing the line instead of running it through the self tailer? That experiment is simple to do and would eliminate one possible source of friction.

Jim

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

A. Your English is fine;

B. 16mm line (aka 5/8") is also fine;

c. Based on the photo, your winch and halyard arrangement with the cam-lock above is quite common;

d. Your winch is a self-tailer. On your halyard, raise the sail as far as you can comfortably by hand, lock the halyard in position with the cam-lock the halyard passes through; place three wraps of the halyard on the winch in a clockwise direction passing the tail of the third wrap over the stripping arm and locked in place with a wrap in the jam jaws on the top of the winch barrel with the tail hanging down over the forward side of the stripping arm and crank away. The first turn of the winch handle will tension the line and open the cam-lock on the mast which will allow you to pull the handle completely open to free the lead for the halyard (hopefully it's fair). As you crank the winch, the stripping arm will pull the wraps toward the top of the winch and strip them off in turn. Once the sail is at full hoist and the luff is tight, close the cam-lock and release the tension on the line between the cam-lock and the winch by pulling the line free of the locking jaws on the top of the winch but leave the line fed around the winch as you will need to take a strain (tension) the line to free the cam-lock when you wish to drop the sail

FWIW...

Thanks much for the explanation! This is pretty much exactly how I would hoist the main sail - if it would be possible. It confirms that I am not too stupid to operate a winch after all these years years

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by robbinsfamily

Can you pull it up by hand most of the way easy? If not your halyard may have slipped off the roller at the top of the mast.

Yes, I can, half way up. The halyard runs smoothly and the cars on the mast track are in reasonable condition, been maintaining them regularly.

Originally Posted by Tartan 31

Hello,

Recently, I ran into a similar situation with my main halyard and it was the plastic halyard exit gate on the mast. The gate should be smooth and rounded like a "U". However, upon removal, the plastic piece was worn into a "V" and acted like a cam cleat under load.

SeaDog products sell stainless steel halyard exits at a reasonable price in two different sizes.

Good luck!

Thanks for the input! I think there is no problem, I can pull up the mast by hand half way up. But I will double check just to make sure.

Originally Posted by Rorzech

The halyard is just laying against against the winch. It would have helped if he took a close up of the winch looking down on it with the halyard wrapped around it 2 or 3 times.

Yeah... I was just including the picture to illustrate the setup. If I can't find a solution I will upload a video of what's happening

[Gypsy23]

Originally Posted by Tartan 31

Hello,

Recently, I ran into a similar situation with my main halyard and it was the plastic halyard exit gate on the mast. The gate should be smooth and rounded like a "U". However, upon removal, the plastic piece was worn into a "V" and acted like a cam cleat under load.

SeaDog products sell stainless steel halyard exits at a reasonable price in two different sizes.

Good luck!

This sounds like a theory which fits the situation. I suggest the OP looks closely at this.

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by Cadence

As a guess, from your description, the angle at which your line is addressing the winch is causing the bind?

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

You'll also want to check the entry angle of the line where it meets the winch. Below is a link to the Harken website where they explain how a proper lead angle to the winch is configured. And curing your problem, or making less of one, could be as simple as fabricating an angled shim to be fitted in between the winch, & the aluminum mount on the mast.

For this, you could use marine plywood sealed with epoxy, some hardwood, or a piece of sheet composite material. Just as long as whatever you choose has; good compressive strength, is sealed or rot proof, & has good UV resistance. Harken Sailboat Hardware and Accessories

You guys might be up to something here. I have never considered the entry angle, will definitely look into this. Thanks also for the tip with the angled shim, sounds like good solution if the angle is not correct.

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

As to the issue at hand, yes, that halyard is a bit of a monster (overly thick) for the application. Especially since it's a 2:1 setup. So you could easily go a size or two smaller for it, & even further than that if you switch to a high modulus line such as something with a Dyneema core like Sampson's Warpspeed.

I've already suspected that being a factor. I'll replace the halyards as soon as I can with a good quality 1/2 line. The problem: There's 1500 miles of water between me and the next chandler that sells good lines I'm planing to sail her to Langkawi (Malaysia) next year, after the north-west monsoon is over. Just need a workaround or at least make it a bit better or my crew might go on strike

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

If the above doesn't make sense, let us know, & we'll try & provide more/better information. Oh, & is this a new problem for you with the boat? Meaning have you had her long enough to have been out sailing on her many times before without this issue coming up when hoisting the sail?
Either way, whether it's a new problem, or an old one, start eliminating one piece of hardware or component at a time as being the source of the problem (or not). Including seeing if this issue happens with the old halyard, & or, a thinner one.
And as already stated by another member, hoist the sail as far as you can by hand, prior to putting the halyard onto the winch. Which, to make hoistiing it easier, give the mast track a good cleaning, & do the same for the cars. This, along with using a tiny amount of dry, non petroleum based lubricant on the cars. One-Drop is what Harken suggests.

I think the halyards have always been a bit tricky to hoist on this boat. I've been having her for 3 years now and my feeling is that it was always difficult but that it's getting worse. That would indicate that the setup was never good to start with and that wear and tear as well as salt and dirt are just making it worse. I will definitely follow your advise and try to eliminate one thing after the other.

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I don't understand this.

If the winch is loaded properly (clockwise wraps, from base to top), then if a crew member pulls on the line leading to the winch (and I assume that you meant out and away from the mast), they are forcing the bottom wrap tighter up against the next wrap.

Perhaps it's a language issue, but getting clarity on this point might help towards a diagnosis and solution.

I think that was just my failed attempt at explaining a workaround for the real problem If none of the solutions suggested here will work I will make a video and demonstrate it

[kudi73]

Everyone, thanks so much for all the input, very appreciated!

To sum it up:
- My lines are most likely oversized
- My winches are maybe a bit undersized
- The entry angle to the winch might not be ideal
- The lines might have too much salt/dirt deposits
- The lines might have deteriorated after years of UV exposure
- The quality of the lines might not have been ideal to start with
- The cars, blocks and exit gate on the mast might cause friction and make it harder to winch

I suspect that it is a combination of multiple of these factors that makes my halyards difficult to winch. I will address one after the other, starting with making sure (again) the halyard runs smooth and then soaking the line in fresh for a few days. I will check and if necessary correct the entry angle, service the winch and finally replace the halyards with good quality 1/2 line.

I owe you all a beer or two! If you ever make it to Bali or Indonesia, let me know

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

i wonder i it is that the self tailing mechanism is too small for the 16 mm diameter line? Have you tried manually tailing the line instead of running it through the self tailer? That experiment is simple to do and would eliminate one possible source of friction.

Jim

That's most likely another factor. The 16mm line is hard to get out of the self tailer when it was under load. But unfortunately, tailing the line manually doesn't solve the problem with the friction in the first two wraps, I have tried that

[double u]

Lewmar specifies 8-16mm line on their Ocean winches from size 50 upwards