Hydranet sail material

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

There are a number of threads on this, a bit like anchors or guns. For my money, cutter all the way - and I don't currently have one. For a broad range of wind conditions I prefer the cutter, even though in the 80+% times when there are moderate winds you have to tack the headsail past the inner stay (that's the big con). But for the 10 or 20% (or more if you sail where Dockhead does) of the time when the wind pipes up having the sail center-of-effort of a reefed main and staysail located low and central on the boat (versus way forward with a small jib on the headstay) more than makes up for any cons. YMMV.

To me it is the most versatile of plans (more than a ketch IMO) and very well suited to globetrotting where you don't always have the option of staying home when the weather isn't perfect.

Bit of thread drift, but we never get tired of talking about this subject.

For me:

Sloop for racing or day sailing in weather you can choose.

Cutter for all weather cruising and ocean sailing.

Or ketch, which is even better than a cutter, but for only (a) being more expensive; and (b) being somewhat less efficient upwind.

It's really useful to be able to vary sail area by using different combinations of sails, so cutter is a huge leap forward from a sloop, for ocean sailing. Headsails, especially overlapping genoas, work just terribly when they are partially furled, and they don't last long if you sail them partially furled, either. So it's much better if you can switch to a different sail rather than roll up your only headsail.

So what I do with my cutter, as the wind increases, is to start by taking away the staysail. Then, reduce the mainsail. Then above about 30 knots apparent, I put away the jib and put out the staysail again. If the wind drops a little, I can roll out more mainsail. Under staysail alone and mainsail reefed to the same height as the staysail, I have a fully self-tacking rig which is good to about 50 knots apparent. Above about 45-50 knots apparent, I put the main completely away and use the staysail alone. Or if downwind, then a little bit of the jib in order to move the center of effort forward, for stability.

With a ketch, you have even many more combinations. The disadvantages of a ketch become less and less, as the boat gets bigger. And the advantages from breaking up the sail plan become greater and greater. For a say 65 foot boat, I would prefer a ketch rig. For something under 50 feet, I wouldn't consider it.

[Kestrahl]

[QUOTE=Joli;3287851
If you are considering Hydranet sails it is best to work with a large loft and have the sails built in Australia. There is a big tarif on hydranet material if imported into the USA.[/QUOTE]

The catalog prices are the same in the US and Aus. You have to be careful a lot of the cheap seconds grade goes to Australia, which can look fine but be a lot more stretchy ( there is a reason its seconds grade ). There are many many things that can go wrong when weaving and finishing sailcloth.
The US and Aus lofts do pay more than the lofts in Europe, as Hydra-net is made in Europe.

[JustMurph]

I had heard on the rumour mill that the sail maker that made my sail uses hydranet seconds. Also they don't put the reinforcement into the sail that's needed to stop it stretching at the reef points.

[Kestrahl]

If its a Mumby Cat like your photo then yes Saxby UK uses seconds grade cloth but at least he freely admits it, unlike some others who don't mention it unless asked. If your just after durability normally the seconds is okay, its normally seconds due to weaving/finishing issues.

Dockhead - the Bainbridge cruising laminate you have was discontinued years ago, and bainbridge stopped making laminates. You can't really categorize them together as quite a few other laminates from that same time period had massive lamination failures. We had hundreds of meters delaminate on the roll before even making sails out of the cloth. Cruising laminates were and continue to be a bit hit and miss as far as cruising reliability especially in humid climates. A good sailmaker will know what is good and bad, and perhaps that was the case for you.

[Windswept-windy]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

There are a number of threads on this, a bit like anchors or guns. For my money, cutter all the way - and I don't currently have one. For a broad range of wind conditions I prefer the cutter, even though in the 80+% times when there are moderate winds you have to tack the headsail past the inner stay (that's the big con). But for the 10 or 20% (or more if you sail where Dockhead does) of the time when the wind pipes up having the sail center-of-effort of a reefed main and staysail located low and central on the boat (versus way forward with a small jib on the headstay) more than makes up for any cons. YMMV.

To me it is the most versatile of plans (more than a ketch IMO) and very well suited to globetrotting where you don't always have the option of staying home when the weather isn't perfect.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Bit of thread drift, but we never get tired of talking about this subject.

For me:

Sloop for racing or day sailing in weather you can choose.

Cutter for all weather cruising and ocean sailing.

Or ketch, which is even better than a cutter, but for only (a) being more expensive; and (b) being somewhat less efficient upwind.

It's really useful to be able to vary sail area by using different combinations of sails, so cutter is a huge leap forward from a sloop, for ocean sailing. Headsails, especially overlapping genoas, work just terribly when they are partially furled, and they don't last long if you sail them partially furled, either. So it's much better if you can switch to a different sail rather than roll up your only headsail.

So what I do with my cutter, as the wind increases, is to start by taking away the staysail. Then, reduce the mainsail. Then above about 30 knots apparent, I put away the jib and put out the staysail again. If the wind drops a little, I can roll out more mainsail. Under staysail alone and mainsail reefed to the same height as the staysail, I have a fully self-tacking rig which is good to about 50 knots apparent. Above about 45-50 knots apparent, I put the main completely away and use the staysail alone. Or if downwind, then a little bit of the jib in order to move the center of effort forward, for stability.

With a ketch, you have even many more combinations. The disadvantages of a ketch become less and less, as the boat gets bigger. And the advantages from breaking up the sail plan become greater and greater. For a say 65 foot boat, I would prefer a ketch rig. For something under 50 feet, I wouldn't consider it.

Reason I brought it up....I've had ketches, ketch yawl and sloops. Those boats were years ago. I have never sailed (mine) a cutter. This Hylas is a sloop, but it has a lolly pop above and staysail chain plate but, No block sheave. I did just talk to Selden....they indicate easy remidy with their block sheave. Having said that....there is also a lolly pop either side for running back stays....which I also do not have. I'll fix this issue when I replace standing soon.

Bottom line, regarding sails. I still have not decided what sail material to use. Advise?

Thanks
Windswept.

btw: Dockhead....you have PM

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

The catalog prices are the same in the US and Aus. You have to be careful a lot of the cheap seconds grade goes to Australia, which can look fine but be a lot more stretchy ( there is a reason its seconds grade ). There are many many things that can go wrong when weaving and finishing sailcloth.
The US and Aus lofts do pay more than the lofts in Europe, as Hydra-net is made in Europe.

Our sailmaker in Detroit, Al DeClerk, advised us that the tariff on Hydranet fabric was substantial but the tariff on finished good (the sail) was much less. Hence the main was cut offshore and finished in Detroit. At the time Doyle was the loft Al represented, he's now with Quantum. When it's time to replace the jib, a string sail from Al, we'll call him and order, probably Hydranet.

Our main and staysail are both Hydranet and have held up well to the 10,000 miles we've put on them in the past year, we hope to get 30,000 miles out of them. The trip down to the Caribbean this year was tough, 4 days of triple reefed main and staysail with 35~45 over the deck beating. We've only seen the main, full hoist, for a few hours since then but it seems to be fine. I'll have to compare photos, new till now to see the differences.

[blubaju]

Hydranet is best material for tropical sailing for me & my catamaran. My last Dacron set was worn out sailing philippines to italy, 2 seasons only, hydranet is in the 10th year though no sailing last 3 years due to health problems. Laminate, my screecher, & tropical climate are no friends. Sails by Hyde, designed England, manufactured Cebu/philippines

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Laminate sails are now night and day better than they used to be in terms of durability, and they are less expensive than they were, too. I think good cruising laminate sails are not more expensive than hydranet, and they hold their shape until they fall apart. If you care about shape and love to sail, I don't think there is any other rational choice.

I'm sure all laminates are not created equal. Lots of lofts are recommending DP DCX Laminate as an "upgrade" choice. But when I search on DCX vs Hydranet, I found Evolution Sails recommending Hydranet TriRadial as an upgrade over DCX.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by Mark424

I'm sure all laminates are not created equal. Lots of lofts are recommending DP DCX Laminate as an "upgrade" choice. But when I search on DCX vs Hydranet, I found Evolution Sails recommending Hydranet TriRadial as an upgrade over DCX.

DCX is a polyester based cruising laminate, Hydra-Net is a dyneema based woven fabric, so not exactly in the same line of material progression.

If you are interested in performance over durability and sail in colder climates then the cloth line goes DCXi, DCX and then SXI ( spectra laminate ) DYS ( spectra laminate ).

The woven line goes from woven polyester (dacron) to woven dyneema blend ( like hydra-net)

So Evolutions website doesn't make a lot of sense really.

[Briggers]

Following

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

So Evolutions website doesn't make a lot of sense really.

Not exactly an unknown in sail making

The Evolutions website says that DCX has the DP finish so who makes DCX, or do lots of cloth manufacturers make a DCX material?

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mark424

I'm sure all laminates are not created equal. Lots of lofts are recommending DP DCX Laminate as an "upgrade" choice. But when I search on DCX vs Hydranet, I found Evolution Sails recommending Hydranet TriRadial as an upgrade over DCX.

Where does it say it's an "upgrade"? I didn't read that at all.


There are different reasons why someone might prefer a woven sail. A woven sail is easier to repair and may be easier to flake. Some woven sails might be more durable. But so long as they are protected against shrink from UV exposure, membrane sails are far superior to any woven sail for holding their shape. This is inherent to the construction.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Windswept-windy

Interesting & thank you for all your inputs. Needless to say, I see pros and cons, mostly pros.

Tad of history....our Hylas has a Selden mast, in mast furling, rig is a sloop but possible cutter as I have a chain plate for a staysail and a place for a T-bolt (mast) for same. I need to add a sheave box to complete the staysail.

I probably should also have asked for a census Pro's & cons (maybe it should have been addressed in it's own thread) or please point to a existing thread....of setting up a cutter or sloop? Pros & Cons

I've had 3 other boats, all with Dacron.

We plan on leaving Ca. next spring for Mexico, where we will work out the boat for year. From there we will work south to Ecuador where we will make our big right turn for the South Pacific. I'm thinking 3 yr's in the area (in & out) for the seasons. From there, SE Asia, maybe 2 yr's...maybe by then Suez will be safe. Med. 3 years easy. Gibraltar, right turn for the Baltics, eventually Atlantic, Carbbean. So, we're looking at 10/12 on fresh sails...which is the reason for the post. Thoughs?

Thank heaps!!

If you can get a good deal, go with Hydranet. It keeps shape for a much longer period, much easier to furl and unfurl and add really to performance, especially below 10kts of breeze. My new cutter sail is going to be made of Hydranet, although the Doyle Dacron did fairly well for the last 10 years, as I’m changing the cutter/staysail to self tacking.

Re. Cutter:
If you already have a cutter chainplate and the T bolt fitting on the mast (must be secured after insertion - Selden has a standard piece for it), I warmly recommend upgrading to a cutter. I have an original cutter rigging with two Furlex rollers (Genoa and cutter) and the flexibility, performance, versatility and safety experienced are outstanding at any ocean conditions over the years.

It is relatively inexpensive upgrade that worth every penny.

Toward next summer in the light New England breeze I plan to add a third (top down) furler on a short bow sprit for the asymmetrical - to add even higher versatility and convenience with limited crew. (And save cabin space for the sail bag)

You have a great sailing plan, the more versatile (and redundant) sails plan available, the better you’re equipped for such a journey

[Windswept-windy]

Originally Posted by Joli

Our sailmaker in Detroit, Al DeClerk, advised us that the tariff on Hydranet fabric was substantial but the tariff on finished good (the sail) was much less. Hence the main was cut offshore and finished in Detroit. At the time Doyle was the loft Al represented, he's now with Quantum. When it's time to replace the jib, a string sail from Al, we'll call him and order, probably Hydranet.

Our main and staysail are both Hydranet and have held up well to the 10,000 miles we've put on them in the past year, we hope to get 30,000 miles out of them. The trip down to the Caribbean this year was tough, 4 days of triple reefed main and staysail with 35~45 over the deck beating. We've only seen the main, full hoist, for a few hours since then but it seems to be fine. I'll have to compare photos, new till now to see the differences.

Originally Posted by blubaju

Hydranet is best material for tropical sailing for me & my catamaran. My last Dacron set was worn out sailing philippines to italy, 2 seasons only, hydranet is in the 10th year though no sailing last 3 years due to health problems. Laminate, my screecher, & tropical climate are no friends. Sails by Hyde, designed England, manufactured Cebu/philippines

Originally Posted by Mark424

I'm sure all laminates are not created equal. Lots of lofts are recommending DP DCX Laminate as an "upgrade" choice. But when I search on DCX vs Hydranet, I found Evolution Sails recommending Hydranet TriRadial as an upgrade over DCX.

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

DCX is a polyester based cruising laminate, Hydra-Net is a dyneema based woven fabric, so not exactly in the same line of material progression.

If you are interested in performance over durability and sail in colder climates then the cloth line goes DCXi, DCX and then SXI ( spectra laminate ) DYS ( spectra laminate ).

The woven line goes from woven polyester (dacron) to woven dyneema blend ( like hydra-net)

So Evolutions website doesn't make a lot of sense really.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Not exactly an unknown in sail making

The Evolutions website says that DCX has the DP finish so who makes DCX, or do lots of cloth manufacturers make a DCX material?

Pete

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Where does it say it's an "upgrade"? I didn't read that at all.


There are different reasons why someone might prefer a woven sail. A woven sail is easier to repair and may be easier to flake. Some woven sails might be more durable. But so long as they are protected against shrink from UV exposure, membrane sails are far superior to any woven sail for holding their shape. This is inherent to the construction.

Following!!!

Originally Posted by DeValency

If you can get a good deal, go with Hydranet. It keeps shape for a much longer period, much easier to furl and unfurl and add really to performance, especially below 10kts of breeze. My new cutter sail is going to be made of Hydranet, although the Doyle Dacron did fairly well for the last 10 years, as I’m changing the cutter/staysail to self tacking.

Re. Cutter:
If you already have a cutter chainplate and the T bolt fitting on the mast (must be secured after insertion - Selden has a standard piece for it), I warmly recommend upgrading to a cutter. I have an original cutter rigging with two Furlex rollers (Genoa and cutter) and the flexibility, performance, versatility and safety experienced are outstanding at any ocean conditions over the years.

It is relatively inexpensive upgrade that worth every penny.

Toward next summer in the light New England breeze I plan to add a third (top down) furler on a short bow sprit for the asymmetrical - to add even higher versatility and convenience with limited crew. (And save cabin space for the sail bag)

You have a great sailing plan, the more versatile (and redundant) sails plan available, the better you’re equipped for such a journey

DeValency, thanks heaps for your reply. I have spoken to Selden...and will be ordering block sheave for the new staysail.

Also, would like hear your feedback regarding the Poll I just started. At the moment, I have an older topdown asymmetrical which I'm not really fond of due to, as indicated in the poll thread.

If you can....please read thread and advise. Thanks Don

[DeValency]

Don - responded to the poll, but added a somewhat stronger recommendation towards a gennaker - part of it and thankfully to the very smart advice of one of our great sailors here: barnakiel

Hylas and Contest (as well as HR, Najad, Oyster etc.) are quite similar in design and rigging concept. Do you have running backstays? - also highly recommended and quite easy to add.

For your long distance cruising plan, I would suggest to keep things as safe, versatile and simple as possible and eliminate any regular out of cockpit sail management, replacement etc...

As for the sail material; a year ago, visited OneSails sailmakers in Italy and fell in love with the Dimension Polyant DCX - another candidate for my next cutter sail. Also worth looking at.