I Found a Rig

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

Quite right. I also pointed out early in this thread that sail area is the other half of the equation.

Continuing the discussion after the derailment...

The sail area is just 1 square meter larger than Grit’s mainsail, but the foresail is a huge, overlapping Genoa since that’s how it was done when the boat was built.

I’m shooting for a more modern, self tacking, 100% working jib and screecher

[GRIT]

I like those sail areas. It sounds like it was made for you!

If you're looking for a used mast, you'll never find one closer to your specs than one from a nearly identical boat. And that one qualifies.

Congratulations. I hope you're happy with it once you've inspected it.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Thumbs Up]

Have you posted photos of your boat yet? I haven't seen them
I see tangs on the mast for 2 stays each side. (not one).
The base to the gooseneck looks short, does your mast step at cabintop level?
Height of mast base to height of crossbeam attachment point need to be considered.
Boom height and slope and cabintop clearance need to be considered.
Mast rake and chainplate location (how far aft) need to be considered
You can not add length to the top, a mast splice needs to be located where there are only compression loads.
Could be dangerous to increase sail area aloft (flat top) since top of mast is basically free standing and extra load could cause it to flex too much.
A stubby rig does have a better goof (safety) factor.
ThumbsUp has a short rig although completely different (masthead rig), but is nice to feel safe in 20+kts with full main.
Are you ready to rig the boat this season? Are the used rig's sails shot?

[Thumbs Up]

Are you in S. Florida? Nance & Underwood could be a good resource. Roger is a catamaran guy. I am just assuming that they are still in operation. They can re-stitch and modify sails and would be a good source for bits and pieces to put that rig together. If you are nearby maybe could get a consultation.

[Chotu]

Lots of good stuff here. Thank you. I’ll respond down inline since there are a good number of questions to answer.

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Have you posted photos of your boat yet? I haven't seen them

No exterior pics of my boat for privacy concerns. Take a look at Grit’s pics. It’s basically the same boat with some different decisions made along the way.

I see tangs on the mast for 2 stays each side. (not one).

Good eye. I saw just the single tang at the top. I didn’t spot a second set of tangs. I’ll have a closer look. That’s certainly a concern. My thoughts were that the double diamond rig never needed lowers like you’re pointing out because the double diamond was transferring the out of column loads without need for lowers. This will need a closer look.

The base to the gooseneck looks short, does your mast step at cabintop level?

Mast is stepped at deck level. So maybe it’s short. I need some real measurements from seeing it in person. Could this be changed easily? Remember, it’s a $50,000 savings over a new mast so I do have room to make some modifications.


Height of mast base to height of crossbeam attachment point need to be considered.

I was thinking this also. The attachment point will not be the same on both boats. Unless some crazy luck. So, needs a new forestay at minimum.

Boom height and slope and cabintop clearance need to be considered.

Definitely. I need real life measurements

Mast rake and chainplate location (how far aft) need to be considered

Just a question of different shrouds and maybe new tangs to adjust position of chainplates, correct? Chainplates need to be installed so there is maybe a little wiggle room here?

You can not add length to the top, a mast splice needs to be located where there are only compression loads.

Hmmm. Ok. I’ll just take that at face value.

Could be dangerous to increase sail area aloft (flat top) since top of mast is basically free standing and extra load could cause it to flex too much.

Do Square tops have a different mast? I know more pressure aloft in that case but all are fractional rig pretty much. Must dig deeper into this.


A stubby rig does have a better goof (safety) factor.
ThumbsUp has a short rig although completely different (masthead rig), but is nice to feel safe in 20+kts with full main.

My thoughts thus far is I’ll capsize in 20 knots without a reef. Or at least I hope so. Ha ha. Being dramatic, but I’m not sure why the fractional would be too much different from the rest of them. Most are fractional these days.


Are you ready to rig the boat this season? Are the used rig's sails shot?

Not ready to rig immediately. Plan is to buy the rig and store it over the winter, focusing on the interior for livability. Then in spring look at getting the rig on.

The used sails are meh. Not new anyway. Shot I’m sure, but could be used to move the boat on my 1000 mile annual migration much more nicely than motoring all that. I felt I could upgrade to new sails when I want to start really wringing out the performance potential.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Are you in S. Florida? Nance & Underwood could be a good resource. Roger is a catamaran guy. I am just assuming that they are still in operation. They can re-stitch and modify sails and would be a good source for bits and pieces to put that rig together. If you are nearby maybe could get a consultation.

Thanks for that tip. I’ll look them up.

Yes, South Florida.

The sails were apparently all looked over and taken care of, then stowed for god knows how long. I’m viewing those as a bonus. A temporary set I can use to move the boat around at lesser performance

[rslifkin]

Temporary sails may also be enough to give you an idea of exactly what you want for new sails and what changes to the rig you may want to make (based on how the boat behaves with the temporary sails).

[zstine]

Here's a suggestion. Put it on as-is and give it a try. If your boat displacement is less than the Cat it came off, you may be fine or close enough that a larger roach main and a nice size asym will do the trick. If you feel too under powered, then you can add the 5ft splice, lower the boom and get new rigging and sails... By trying it as is, you haven't lost anything!... maybe a little in stepping it and a few shrouds and stays, but that's peanuts to the $50k saved. AND if it works, you've saved biggly on time and money!
As for the boom height above mast step issue with deck step vice cabin top. I cannot think of a reason why a properly designed base/stub that raises the mast step from your deck up a foot or 2 would not be easily doable unless it really needs to be tall.

Well, okay.. one issue is structural integrity. I'm betting your fine with slightly larger sails on the original lenth, but if you need to extend 5ft, then you may want to do structural calculations. section moments of inertia can be calculated from the cross sectional dimensions of the mast. you just need to go take some detailed measurements and do a bit of math.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Temporary sails may also be enough to give you an idea of exactly what you want for new sails and what changes to the rig you may want to make (based on how the boat behaves with the temporary sails).

This is a good point. There will no doubt be plenty of adjustments, even with the $60,000-$70,000 rig.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by zstine

Here's a suggestion. Put it on as-is and give it a try. If your boat displacement is less than the Cat it came off, you may be fine or close enough that a larger roach main and a nice size asym will do the trick. If you feel too under powered, then you can add the 5ft splice, lower the boom and get new rigging and sails... By trying it as is, you haven't lost anything!... maybe a little in stepping it, but that's peanuts. AND if it works, you've saved biggly

Hmmm. These are also good points

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Have you posted photos of your boat yet? I haven't seen them
I see tangs on the mast for 2 stays each side. (not one).
The base to the gooseneck looks short, does your mast step at cabintop level?
Height of mast base to height of crossbeam attachment point need to be considered.
Boom height and slope and cabintop clearance need to be considered.
Mast rake and chainplate location (how far aft) need to be considered
You can not add length to the top, a mast splice needs to be located where there are only compression loads.
Could be dangerous to increase sail area aloft (flat top) since top of mast is basically free standing and extra load could cause it to flex too much.
A stubby rig does have a better goof (safety) factor.
ThumbsUp has a short rig although completely different (masthead rig), but is nice to feel safe in 20+kts with full main.
Are you ready to rig the boat this season? Are the used rig's sails shot?

I’m straining to see 2 tangs on each side in the pics. Can you point out what you see?

I see a double diamond rig with a pair of tangs to make it a fractional rig. With the masthead completely unsupported.

Similar to the attached.

[Dougtiff]

He said, he does not know the mast manufacture,5 ft. shorter will work, and recutting a sail would work, it sounds like the cost of the mast is much less than new , so the cost of a recut would still be a huge saving, as a Rigger, i have adopted numerous mast's to boat's they were not designed for, depends on the boat, rig, use,ect., i just completed a Tabernackle design and install on a 36 ft. sail boat , that need to go under a bridge to get to the slip, used a 12 volt winch designed to go on the front bumper of a vehicle to lower and raise the mast, with a remote control , good fun.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

He said, he does not know the mast manufacture,5 ft. shorter will work, and recutting a sail would work, it sounds like the cost of the mast is much less than new , so the cost of a recut would still be a huge saving, as a Rigger, i have adopted numerous mast's to boat's they were not designed for, depends on the boat, rig, use,ect., i just completed a Tabernackle design and install on a 36 ft. sail boat , that need to go under a bridge to get to the slip, used a 12 volt winch designed to go on the front bumper of a vehicle to lower and raise the mast, with a remote control , good fun.

A tabernacle type rig would be my ultimate dream with this boat. I’ve tried to reason it out. However, I think the furling unit on the forestay makes it impossible, right?

[Fore and Aft]

Chotu did you say that the mast came from a Outremer cat? If so nothing cheap or shoddy about those cats.
I am not a rigger but am firmly in the camp of close enough is good enough. Multihull rigs are all so different, I surveyed a 13 meter Simpson cat that had 3 forestays yesterday!
Cheers

[fxykty]

Edit: after closer look at the photos, that definitely isn’t a first generation Outremer rig unless after-market (maybe cut down to fit the ICW?). The Outremer rigs have two sets of swept back spreaders with a forward strut each and three part diamond stays, plus the in-line jumper spreaders to support the upper mast. Also seems a bit short for an Outremer 50 - on our 55 the mast is 19.2m.

The round section above the hounds probably won’t support a square top main. Though nothing much wrong with an elliptical roach and you avoid the hassles of a square top halyard connection.

You will need to replace all the wires, and probably tangs as well. Furler and foil may not be all that good anymore. The overall cost of the rig after refit won’t be all that much less than new, but if you can re-use the sails too that makes it more cost-effective. If the basic dimensions of the sails work for your boat.