In-mast vs in-boom furling

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

. . . lordy, lordy, lordy.....the modern day sailor is becoming a slave to " modern" convenience....electronics out the wazoo....in-mast furlers....all lines led to cockpit...and a myriad more things.....dockside queens....these boat hardly ever leave the dock in anything over 5 knots ...

ok, my rant is over.....good luck to you all....see you on the water...maybe ??

Well, I hate to get in the way of a good baseless prejudice -- the kind of opinion which is so satisfying to hold, but:





That's an in-mast furling boat at 71N, in Northern Greenland, not far from the polar ice cap, 2000 miles through some of the harshest seas on the planet, including icebergs and brash ice, from her home base.



Yeah, my boat.


If my boat were a "dock queen", I wouldn't want in-mast furling. What's the point if you rarely use it? In-mast furling, on the contrary, is really good for tough ocean sailing, especially in latitudes where you can't avoid getting into situations where you just cannot head up into massive seas, to reef the main sail.

[Kenomac]

Great picture, excellent response! Let’s see some more pics of the trip.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by gonesail

i crewed on an IP40 with in boom furling. it took 2 or 3 people to furl it and that was at the end of the day when you wished you could just drop it. letting it out was also a challenge if the wind was up. god forbid if you got it jammed which did happen according to the captain.

Don’t confuse older in-boom systems with modern Leisurefurl or similar electric single-handed systems.

[nomisfarms]

If you check out Shaffer inboom furlers you will find out that they can be reefed or raised or lowered on any point of sail, good luck.

[Matt Johnson]

Someone was asking about cats and in mast..... Antares Catamarans come with inmast Seldon main standard (it maybe optional?).

Matt

[LoudMusic]

Yeah I'm jealous. We've only owned the boat a year, but we haven't taken it anywhere that the land is more than a few feet taller than our mast. I am really hoping to sail to some high coast lines.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by saillr

I have tried to stay out of this but there are times when you just have to say something.

I feel the same

Originally Posted by saillr

49DS says -
"In mast has another huge benefit : when furled away the sail is well protected from the elements so is likely to last longer."
So much BS but I assume the person has no idea what boom furling really is.

Well, the way I read it, 49DS is talking about in-mast reefing and I agree with him based on experience of using my yacht over 12 years. Tell me, how much experience with in-mast reefing do you have to say "so much..." what was the condition of your sail after a few years and how long did you use it before replacing it? I look forward to you explaining your experience of in-mast reefing, or is it based on something you read on the internet. BTW, I posted the same thing as 49DS back in post no 57.

Originally Posted by saillr

Tillsbury makes a very good point. One of the major things in my mind is weight aloft. The in-mast type mast is much heavier because of the extra beef required to compensate for the slot cut in the entire length of mast. Also when at anchor the entire sail is still aloft so additional weight causing more rock and roll at anchor.

When you say "much heavier" is that twice as heavy,? please quantify your statement. Actually having inspected one of our sister yachts my mast is no heavier, the furling pole is a 45' x 2" aluminium pole and the sail, probably 10kgs. Certainly you can carry it with one hand. As to the weight of my mast which is 45ft long, I can't lift one end when it's on tressels, I know I tried. So in conclusion my experience any increase in weight is a tiny percentage.

You also made a mistake by stating "more rock and roll at anchor". No I don't believe this statement is correct either. An increase in weight aloft will change the frequency of the roll so it could be slower and much more comfortable, but only if extra weight for the keel isn't changed. Our bilge keels are heavier compared to our fin keeled sister yachts. In practice and by observation I can't see any difference when we anchor with other yachts. What is your experience? did you notice the change in frequency?

Overall I therefore find your post shows a shortfall in knowledge of in-mast reefing. However, I do agree with the first 3 words of your third sentence in post no 105.

If you ever make it to England let me know. We can go sailing with my in-mast reefing

[MarkI]

Information request about Furling Booms:

My sailing mentor has a 42' Catalina with a Schaefer Furling Boom. The boom came with the new 2017 yacht, but was installed by the broker at the yard during commissioning, so not really factory. This broker does it a lot and the sail was custom designed for the rig. I have noticed the following and wonder if there are techniques that may mitigate them:

1) It has been recommended to reef to a batten, so in practice he reefs to the equivalent of one slab reef or two. The whole infinite reefing thing does not appear in practice.
2) The outhaul is very hard to adjust, pretty much set once at install or adjust at the dock. So the flatness of the sail does not seem adjustable, in the way that tightening the outhaul would do.
3) When reefed, there is pretty much NO outhaul, except see item 1, which tries to use a batten to control the outhaul. It seems hard to get a flat sail when sailing in high wind when you need to reef.
4) The sailing magazine review of these systems, mentions problems with sail luff tape wear. I dismissed that until I learned that my mentor has repaired the luff tape once and replaced it once, in about two years of sailing.
5) Now he won't reef the Main under sailing conditions, because he worries that reefing under any pressure will strain the luff tape. So we had to drop out of a beer can race when the wind got stronger.
6) The whole luff tape technique is very friction limited, doesn't that translate into poorer sail shape control using the halyard? Seems like increasing or decreasing halyard tension would not transfer along the whole luff.

I am not taking a stance here against boom furling, it is pretty convenient, and has many advantages and some disadvantages as mentioned.

I just wonder if there are ways to reduce the effects above that I have seen.

FYI, I just ordered my first sailboat, a new Beneteau (designed in France but principally made in South Carolina) 46.1. That sailboat comes with in mast furling standard because they claim that is how most of the previous model 45 were ordered. I selected the "First Line" option, for performance during beer can (not serious but fun) racing. It is slab reefed with single line reefing. I am hoping to join those that say slab reefing is not that hard, nor is stowing the sail with a lazy bag, but you make your choice and learn to appreciate it right?

I do not see a right or wrong here, just different advantages, which is in fact what the OP asked for.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by MarkI

Information request about Furling Booms:

My sailing mentor has a 42' Catalina with a Schaefer Furling Boom. The boom came with the new 2017 yacht, but was installed by the broker at the yard during commissioning, so not really factory. This broker does it a lot and the sail was custom designed for the rig. I have noticed the following and wonder if there are techniques that may mitigate them:

1) It has been recommended to reef to a batten, so in practice he reefs to the equivalent of one slab reef or two. The whole infinite reefing thing does not appear in practice.
2) The outhaul is very hard to adjust, pretty much set once at install or adjust at the dock. So the flatness of the sail does not seem adjustable, in the way that tightening the outhaul would do.
3) When reefed, there is pretty much NO outhaul, except see item 1, which tries to use a batten to control the outhaul. It seems hard to get a flat sail when sailing in high wind when you need to reef.


4) The sailing magazine review of these systems, mentions problems with sail luff tape wear. I dismissed that until I learned that my mentor has repaired the luff tape once and replaced it once, in about two years of sailing.
5) Now he won't reef the Main under sailing conditions, because he worries that reefing under any pressure will strain the luff tape. So we had to drop out of a beer can race when the wind got stronger.
6) The whole luff tape technique is very friction limited, doesn't that translate into poorer sail shape control using the halyard? Seems like increasing or decreasing halyard tension would not transfer along the whole luff.

I am not taking a stance here against boom furling, it is pretty convenient, and has many advantages and some disadvantages as mentioned.

I just wonder if there are ways to reduce the effects above that I have seen.

FYI, I just ordered my first sailboat, a new Beneteau (designed in France but principally made in South Carolina) 46.1. That sailboat comes with in mast furling standard because they claim that is how most of the previous model 45 were ordered. I selected the "First Line" option, for performance during beer can (not serious but fun) racing. It is slab reefed with single line reefing. I am hoping to join those that say slab reefing is not that hard, nor is stowing the sail with a lazy bag, but you make your choice and learn to appreciate it right?

I do not see a right or wrong here, just different advantages, which is in fact what the OP asked for.

The LeisureFurl uses the furling line to flatten the sail. When the sail is raised so that a batten is just above the boom you can lock the halyard and pull down on the furler and the sail flattens. This works pretty well on my boom but it could be different on the Shaeffer.

It is recommended to reef to a batten I think to improve the shape of the foot but I can attest that you can reef to any point and there is really no stress points or anything. I didn’t reef it a batten for many years just out of ignorance.

The luff tape thing is a problem for many. LeisureFurl recommends some sort of luff tape (I am sure it costs more. :-)) that is supposed to be better. My previous sail was 15 years old and the luff was fine. I don’t know if the PO had to repair it. We did not in 3 years of sailing. The new one is doing fine after a year of reefing in all winds. There has been issues with the sail track at the bottom that some booms have experienced. Ours is loose and flexible at the bottom so the sail does not bind going in. I think this was something that was done after the original install and is currently recommended for new installs.

That is just our experience with LeisureFurl and discussions with our sailmaker at North who has had a bit of experience with them.

[svspirited]

That's a beauty of a boat, what make is she? Another opinion out there that I think is worth more than a few grains of salt is the fact that John Kretchmer loves in-mast for one reason above all others, the ability to furl off the wind in serious conditions. I haven't been in anything nearly as serious as the seas at those latitudes but I can say that it is comforting to be able to reef regardless of the point of sail I'm on when it starts blowing stink without much warning.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, I hate to get in the way of a good baseless prejudice -- the kind of opinion which is so satisfying to hold, but:


Attachment 194599


That's an in-mast furling boat at 71N, in Northern Greenland, not far from the polar ice cap, 2000 miles through some of the harshest seas on the planet, including icebergs and brash ice, from her home base.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MarkI

2) The outhaul is very hard to adjust, pretty much set once at install or adjust at the dock. So the flatness of the sail does not seem adjustable, in the way that tightening the outhaul would do.
3) When reefed, there is pretty much NO outhaul, except see item 1, which tries to use a batten to control the outhaul. It seems hard to get a flat sail when sailing in high wind when you need to reef.

An outhaul to flatten the mainsail is more critical when sailing upwind. I think that if there were a few large grommets put in the leech of the sail a outhaul line with a shackle on it could be attached to the nearest grommet and used to flatten the sail quite effectively.

When sailing close hauled it would be relatively easy to reach up to the sail and attach the shackle the apply whatever tension you need.

However you would need to unshackle it before further furling or unfurling the sail

BTW, slab reefing main is not a big deal, we two oldsters on Wings do it quite quickly with no stress. A single line system adds a lot of friction and slows down the reefing process. With two people the slab reefing is quick:

One person releases the halyard and the second person goes to the mast to pull down the sail and hook the luff cringle to the tack hook.
Then the halyard is tightened and both persons, in the cockpit, grind in the clew reefing line.
If it is the second or third reef then sail ties are placed around the reefed sail to reduce flapping.

We also don't bother with stack pack or lazy jacks, we just fold the sail after sailing. It is a pleasant ritual with us, (to put away sails and clean up the boat, that is) and it is simpler.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by MarkI

Information request about Furling Booms:

My sailing mentor has a 42' Catalina with a Schaefer Furling Boom. The boom came with the new 2017 yacht, but was installed by the broker at the yard during commissioning, so not really factory. This broker does it a lot and the sail was custom designed for the rig. I have noticed the following and wonder if there are techniques that may mitigate them:

1) It has been recommended to reef to a batten, so in practice he reefs to the equivalent of one slab reef or two. The whole infinite reefing thing does not appear in practice.
2) The outhaul is very hard to adjust, pretty much set once at install or adjust at the dock. So the flatness of the sail does not seem adjustable, in the way that tightening the outhaul would do.
3) When reefed, there is pretty much NO outhaul, except see item 1, which tries to use a batten to control the outhaul. It seems hard to get a flat sail when sailing in high wind when you need to reef.
4) The sailing magazine review of these systems, mentions problems with sail luff tape wear. I dismissed that until I learned that my mentor has repaired the luff tape once and replaced it once, in about two years of sailing.
5) Now he won't reef the Main under sailing conditions, because he worries that reefing under any pressure will strain the luff tape. So we had to drop out of a beer can race when the wind got stronger.
6) The whole luff tape technique is very friction limited, doesn't that translate into poorer sail shape control using the halyard? Seems like increasing or decreasing halyard tension would not transfer along the whole luff.

I am not taking a stance here against boom furling, it is pretty convenient, and has many advantages and some disadvantages as mentioned.

I just wonder if there are ways to reduce the effects above that I have seen.

FYI, I just ordered my first sailboat, a new Beneteau (designed in France but principally made in South Carolina) 46.1. That sailboat comes with in mast furling standard because they claim that is how most of the previous model 45 were ordered. I selected the "First Line" option, for performance during beer can (not serious but fun) racing. It is slab reefed with single line reefing. I am hoping to join those that say slab reefing is not that hard, nor is stowing the sail with a lazy bag, but you make your choice and learn to appreciate it right?

I do not see a right or wrong here, just different advantages, which is in fact what the OP asked for.

You have a couple of points that are real.
1. No real control of the outhaul
2. Luff tape wear, Especially if you furl downwind, but it’s still able to be furled if you accept the increase wear.

You talk a lot about beer can racing, and I believe that is the issue, neither in boom, or in mast is preferable for that, if that is what your after, then you made the right choice in my limited experience and went with neither.
However the thread is about inmast vs in boom, I don’t believe anyone believes for pure performance either is as good as a regular main sail.
Furling mains are for cruising boat sails, many give up speed a little in a cruising boat to gain ease of use and comfort, that is what in my opinion a furling main sail does, gives up some performance for ease of use.
Weather turns bad it’s nice and safer, especially if your an older guy with limited agility because both his knees are bone on bone with no cartilage left, to not have to leave the cockpit to reef.

I have never tried reefing to a batten myself, there is logic to it I think so I’ll give it a try when I reef to windward, which would be the only time I think it would be useful. But being able to reef just a couple of feet and get a perfect helm balance is a pretty useful thing in my opinion.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You have a couple of points that are real.
1. No real control of the outhaul
2. Luff tape wear, Especially if you furl downwind, but it’s still able to be furled if you accept the increase wear.

You talk a lot about beer can racing, and I believe that is the issue, neither in boom, or in mast is preferable for that, if that is what your after, then you made the right choice in my limited experience and went with neither.
However the thread is about inmast vs in boom, I don’t believe anyone believes for pure performance either is as good as a regular main sail.
Furling mains are for cruising boat sails, many give up speed a little in a cruising boat to gain ease of use and comfort, that is what in my opinion a furling main sail does, gives up some performance for ease of use.
Weather turns bad it’s nice and safer, especially if your an older guy with limited agility because both his knees are bone on bone with no cartilage left, to not have to leave the cockpit to reef.

I have never tried reefing to a batten myself, there is logic to it I think so I’ll give it a try when I reef to windward, which would be the only time I think it would be useful. But being able to reef just a couple of feet and get a perfect helm balance is a pretty useful thing in my opinion.

Very good answer!

About the luff tape wear: Trying to reduce pressure on the luff tape during furling or unfurling by luffing the sail would be a good practice, it seems to me. The wear occurs when it is going up or down, same as any sail with a luff tape which is put up or down often. Also helpful, in my opinion, is liberal use of Sailkote or other lubricant.

I have also been careful to have smooth sail groove on the mast. Any small rough spot will cut the luff tape.

Finally, for us, most of the wear is on the top of the luff tape. This can be repaired without replacing the luff tape. We even actually trim off the bad spot with a hot knife.

(We have, between jibs and mainsails, eight sails with luff tapes, all which are raised and lowered (no furling). Luff tape wear is a constant occurrence and a pain, but the sails have great shape. We live with it.)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Very good answer!

About the luff tape wear: Trying to reduce pressure on the luff tape during furling or unfurling by luffing the sail would be a good practice, it seems to me. The wear occurs when it is going up or down, same as any sail with a luff tape which is put up or down often. Also helpful, in my opinion, is liberal use of Sailkote or other lubricant.

I have also been careful to have smooth sail groove on the mast. Any small rough spot will cut the luff tape.

Finally, for us, most of the wear is on the top of the luff tape. This can be repaired without replacing the luff tape. We even actually trim off the bad spot with a hot knife.

(We have, between jibs and mainsails, eight sails with luff tapes, all which are raised and lowered (no furling). Luff tape wear is a constant occurrence and a pain, but the sails have great shape. We live with it.)

So there are no cars? Why wouldn't you have cars on a sail which you raise and lower every time you use it?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So there are no cars? Why wouldn't you have cars on a sail which you raise and lower every time you use it?

How would you feed those cars into the track?
Remember the whole sail rolls onto the boom, you need something continuous to feed into the track.
Think roller furling Jib, how it’s initially fed into the track, just my system has a set of rollers to align it to the track as it comes off of the spindle.
The luff tape wear is real, but maybe a little overstated. In six years I have had to have mine repaired once, and only at the top six inches, it’s worse there for some reason, has the be the lanyard pulling it somehow I figure. In all honesty by the time it needs it again, I’m probably going to get a new sail, a dozen years if used full time isn’t a bad life span?
Actually it’s likely to be at least 20 yrs old by then, it wasn’t new when I bought the boat.