installing a babystay

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

An inner forestay on a sloop is also called a Solent Stay,which could be removed when not in use. The link below has excellent information on an installation. A great blog BTW and I believe the author is a member here and he may chime in.

Solent Stay

Probably lots of loose definitions around the world. Here's how they've been used as I have heard or read:

Babystay is a stay to add bend to the mast to stabilize the mast and/or flatten the main. You don't put a sail on it. It is quite close to the mast.

Inner forestay is used to set a staysail. Quite often requires running backs or swept back spreaders or a permanent aft lower attached at the forestay hounds. Can be removable.

Solent stay attaches close enough to the top of the mast to not require additional support. I've seen numbers that it should be within 3-5% of the top of the mast length. The solent is usually far enough forward that you can't tack the jib without furling it. A solent seems to be more of a you use one sail or the other, but not both at the same time. A staysail on an inner forestay can be used in conjunction with a jib.

[cwyckham]

Great thread. Adelie's detailed responses are amazing!!

Adelie, appently my Niagara 35's headstay is technically a jibstay because it attaches to the short bowsprit. Is that right?

I've been thinking about a solent stay on my Niagara, but I haven't done it, so this is all theory... In my case, there's a bulkhead behind the anchor locker, but it has a very large hole in it. I was thinking of a fitting just aft of the bulkhead with four bolts going through the deck to a large backing plate with a ring on it. I'd then attach the ring down to either the bobstay fitting or the lower part of the bulkhead to take the tension load.

The obvious way to transfer the tension is with a cable and turnbuckles, but if your tensioner for a removable inner forestay ends up in an inconvenient place (like through the center of the v-berth that you aren't using at sea anyways). A rigger gave me the idea of using spectra cord wrapped many times. Very strong, and each time you thread it up through the top ring and then back down to the bottom ring, you increase the mechanical advantage. Very cool concept.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Adelie, appently my Niagara 35's headstay is technically a jibstay because it attaches to the short bowsprit. Is that right?

As I said, what I seemed to find is that historically the jibstay was the stay that went from the bowsprit to the mast head. This was based on a search with mild effort. I am not a historian. My sense is that even then there was some variation in what exactly the term meant. Current usage seems to be whatever stays are attached to the stem or bowsprit regardless of masthead or fractional rig.

For another example of this look up the origins of the word 'cutter', little relation to current usage.

Originally Posted by cwyckham

I've been thinking about a solent stay on my Niagara, but I haven't done it, so this is all theory... In my case, there's a bulkhead behind the anchor locker, but it has a very large hole in it. I was thinking of a fitting just aft of the bulkhead with four bolts going through the deck to a large backing plate with a ring on it. I'd then attach the ring down to either the bobstay fitting or the lower part of the bulkhead to take the tension load.

If there is a really big hole in that bulkhead, then pretty hard to make it work structurally. The fittings you mentioned probably look something like this: Rigrite, though these aren't exactly right. You want the fittings on top and bottom of the deck to be asymmetrical so that the stay and anchorage loads line up or the deck will be warped. See attached sketch. This link, Rigging Only, has some fittings that might work better.

If you attach to the bulkhead lower down, make sure it is at the level of the V-berth or you will break the bulkhead by pulling it aft, see same sketch.

Attaching to the bobstay sound like a wonderful idea if you can appropriately modify the fitting.

Originally Posted by cwyckham

The obvious way to transfer the tension is with a cable and turnbuckles, but if your tensioner for a removable inner forestay ends up in an inconvenient place (like through the center of the v-berth that you aren't using at sea anyways). A rigger gave me the idea of using spectra cord wrapped many times. Very strong, and each time you thread it up through the top ring and then back down to the bottom ring, you increase the mechanical advantage. Very cool concept.

Given the amount of friction involved I don't think you will get a terrible lot of mechanical advantage trying to pull a lashing tight by hand tight by hand. But once you have it as tight as you can get it manually you can get a lot more load by inserting a bar thru bight of the lashing at it's midpoint and twisting. It's called a 'Spanish Windlass'. See a sketch here: The Spanish windlass - Fine Homebuilding Tip

[Brian.clarity]

A great big thank you to all of you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I feel much more comfortable with this project thanks to this blog.

[Matt Johnson]

We just used two Wichard folding padeye... one on top of the deck and its twin below as a backing plate. This was then seized with amsteel to another folding padeye that I mounted inline with a glassed in panel in the anchor locker. This allows the pull to lineup due to the folding nature of the padeyes.

[cwyckham]

Wow, Adelie, Great stuff. I love the Spanish Windlass idea.

Since I have a thin section of tabbed bulkhead above the large cut-out, I was thinking of coming in at the bulkhead and dropping the tie-rod vertically down from there. The strip of bulkhead should be enough for shear in both the longitudinal and lateral directions, and the tie rod (or Spanish windlass) can take the tension.

I think the asymmetric fitting would still be needed though (thanks for that, I hadn't thought of the overturning moments from the offset).

[Matt Johnson]

We also used the Wichard 9150 fitting on the mast, two Facnor code zero thimbles were used for the Amsteel Blue stay, and a Wichard babystay adjuster was used for tension.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Assuming there is a bulkhead at the forward end of the v-berth this would be a good place to install a chain plate for the forestay.

You will want to add intermediate uppers and running backstays too.

See attached sketch for how I would set it up. Big arrow on the lower plan view drawing shows where I would expect the bulkhead to be.

Yes... dont just put it thru the deck with a plate. Use the anchor locker bulkhead or something similar.

[Freerider]

Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Freerider

Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.

They always interfere with the main. That is why you have two... just tension the one on the windward side to take up the forestay tension. You then switch over when you tack.

The leeward side remains slack or pulled back up to the mast.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Freerider

Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.

an alternative used to support cutter stays is to run them just aft of the lower aft shroud chainplate, often these are not runners but permanent stays. Look clsely and you can see them in the pic here:

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

They always interfere with the main. That is why you have two... just tension the one on the windward side to take up the forestay tension. You then switch over when you tack.

The leeward side remains slack or pulled back up to the mast.

In another words run them back to winches or use purchase blocks, or both.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by Freerider

Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.

This is also one reason people choose to go with a solent stay which attaches to the mast high enough up that no running backs are needed (by the way, the "running" part of running backstay refers to the fact that they are moved with every tack/gybe).

[over40pirate]

I need an inner forstay on my Bristol 35 sloop, to hang a light air genny, and storm jib if needed.
I called the mast mfg, and they said I could attach it to the mast, without the need for runners (I was cruising, and couldn't imagine to have to deal with runners when tacking. Especially solo sailing) if it was within 15" (can't remember exact figure) of the mast head.

At the bottom, the stem head fitting had a hole for a toggle, about 1' back from the forstay. Worked fine.