is good rope the same as expensive rope

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

you obviously didn't read my post......"it could be used, if nothing else is available"

I find 1/4", a tad small diameter for line handling...

but you do things your way...and I'll do things my way...

Well, I did read your post, and you said:

"while nylon is not appropriate for halyard use....it could be used, if nothing else is available....halyard tension as applied by the halyard winch will take a lot of the stretch out in the hoist and any remaining stretch will likely be minimal."

I (and I think Jedi) don't argue with the first part, for it surely could be used in extremis. But I disagree that the remaining stretch would be minimal.

Even decent dacron double braid stretches enough to prevent a really tight luff on a decent size main, and nylon would be far worse. Not "minimal" at all...

jim

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Relax, you can say "rope" I have miles of ropes on my boat.

Rope is cordage of a particular type, bigger than small stuff and smaller than cable. If you refer to a piece of this type of cordage as " a rope", you are simply referring to it generically, without specifying its use.

Referring to ropes in use as sheets, halyards, etc as ropes does sound like you might not "know the ropes", so to speak. But it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's not, contrary to what some say.

Was that wry humor? I loved it.

[Colin Stone]

I use Hempex rope from the Chatham Dockyard UK ropery for mooring lines.
A 220m roll of 24mm works out at a little over £1/m.

[Funkie]

Going one size larger with a somewhat cheaper line seems to answer most of the concerns. Strength, uV.chafe. Generally easier on the hands and frequently easier to splice.

[MicHughV]

Luff tension in a main is not that clear cut....as simply hoist tension or cordage used.

My experience has been that even with the main hoisted tight as possible, the upper part of the main is usually tight, but the lower half not so tight. The reason being, the weight distribution of a sail is the most at the head and the least at the foot.

I attribute this to friction on the sail slugs inside the track as well as weight distribution of the sail. Even though I try to keep the sail slugs greased, they tend to bind up or not slide smoothly at all times, especially near the top of the mast. This is particularly noticeable on a full battened main. The greased sail slugs on the lower part of the mast must all pass thru' the same spot more or less, but the upper slugs are on their own, with the result, the top half of the mast sees little grease.

For this reason, I'm a big fan of the sliding gooseneck, as this allows me to tension the lower part of the sail with relative ease. The initial hoist will raise the foot of the sail by 6-9", which I can than tighten back down.

This is my preferred system to hoist a main.

No, I've never used nylon as a halyard as there is no disagreement from me that this is the wrong tool for the job, just saying, if you have other choice, it could be used.

[Dave9111]

A few years ago a rope manufacturer in Florida was selling new braided polyester dynamic climbing rope fairly cheaply if you bought 500 ft off Ebay. I think this was mid December, so definitely off season. I bought a box of it and cut it into lengths to use as dock lines. Its black and has held up really, really well. It holds knots very well and works very well on the cleats.

It is extremely abrasion resistant. It stretches only slightly considering that the length from the cleat to the boat is not more than 12 ft. But enough to minimize shock loads at the cleats. It was rated for something like 4000+ lbs and strength has never been an issue.

I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.

I wash it at the end of each season in a net bag in the washing machine. Works great, and it comes out looking line new. I have over 3 years on some of my dock lines.

I also took a risk on some inexpensive Chinese made double braid for some halyards and it has worked out every well. Very low stretch and half or less the price of the big names. I have bought some new brand name ropes and looking at the two side by side, I can't tell the difference.

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Traditionally low stretch halyards are made from steel wire, pretty tough for handling as well. So they put on a rope tail for the part where you handle it.

With Dyneema halyards you do the same: 1/4” Dyneema and where you handle it you add a polyester cover, which makes it 3/8” diameter. Great to handle

How do you apply a cover? I've spliced a thin Dyneema line to a thicker double braided line where I handle it (my furling line for example which allows more turns on the drum) but don't know how you would completely cover a Dyneema core with a braided cover. I have also threaded a short length of line inside the braid core of a rope to make it thicker where it runs through a jammer, and that was hard work even for just 12", so how do you do it?

[NormanMartin]

I switched to Lanex brand and am happy with it. The difference is in tightness of cover weave and materials inside. Didn't bother learning specs since they exceeded my need and were within my budget.
PM for the contact person.
No financial interest
Norm

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

How do you apply a cover? I've spliced a thin Dyneema line to a thicker double braided line where I handle it (my furling line for example which allows more turns on the drum) but don't know how you would completely cover a Dyneema core with a braided cover. I have also threaded a short length of line inside the braid core of a rope to make it thicker where it runs through a jammer, and that was hard work even for just 12", so how do you do it?

Rope work requires some dedication… I’ve been doing it since teenager but I think there are reasonable books and YouTube videos to show the process.

Here are some pictures of me splicing the 3/8” polyester cover into a 1/4” Amsteel Blue dyneema line. I now use an easier, quicker way, but this is the traditional method.

The polyester cover here is from Yale Cordage and came with a messenger line through the center. Nowadays you buy Samson Warpspeed II (has the Amsteel Blue core) and strip the cover. You then save the cover and use it for the next project.

[MicHughV]

nicely done !!!

[Rightbrainer]

I bought a cheap-o imported double braid dock line 1/2x20 for maybe 15 bucks at a local marina. When I pulled the core, while making an eye splice, out pops a mill splice in the core. It was just butted together and wrapped with tape. Probably sufficient for rafting up on a nice day, but I wouldn't turn my back on it.

When I tugged it to burry the cross-over, it just pulled right apart.

Fortunately, I was only making a dog leash, but I'm done with anything other than NER, Yale, Samson, or Marlow for important applications.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Dyneema is by far the preferred rope for halyards for cruisers. I use 1/4” which is great and cost effective

Jedi,


I am a big believer in the function and the cost effectiveness of dyneema for cruisers. I have gone through a 200-m spool of 6mm (1/4") on my 43-ft boat. Asym sheets, reef lines, boom vang, spinnaker pole bobstay, and jib halyards. Main halyard is next.


However, I am starting to second-guess the use of 1/4" on the halyards. How big is your boat, and are you happy with the 1/4"?


For clarification, these lines are not all pure dyneema. Where they are handled, they are "thickened" with inserted core and added cover. It is a lot of work, but I find it satisfying. In addition to low stretch, I love the fact that 1/4" dyneema replaces much heavier line. It is just so easy to handle and store!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Jedi,


I am a big believer in the function and the cost effectiveness of dyneema for cruisers. I have gone through a 200-m spool of 6mm (1/4") on my 43-ft boat. Asym sheets, reef lines, boom vang, spinnaker pole bobstay, and jib halyards. Main halyard is next.


However, I am starting to second-guess the use of 1/4" on the halyards. How big is your boat, and are you happy with the 1/4"?


For clarification, these lines are not all pure dyneema. Where they are handled, they are "thickened" with inserted core and added cover. It is a lot of work, but I find it satisfying. In addition to low stretch, I love the fact that 1/4" dyneema replaces much heavier line. It is just so easy to handle and store!

Jedi is a ketch rigged Sundeer 64. Amsteel Blue in 1/4” strength is about 8,000 pounds. We use this for halyards, furling, dinghy hoist, lifelines, soft shackles, loops etc. and we’ll be using it for reefing lines soon.

Yes, it’s extra work to add covers, make it bigger diameter where needed etc. but you win some time because of the much easier splices.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

How do you apply a cover?

Jedi gave some nice pictures, but I want to add a bit more of my thoughts.


I work a piece of light cord, perhaps 3/16, inside the core of the Dyneema to make it a bit thicker. I found some stuff on eBay that is rather firm, I think it comes from the horseback community. I used to use softer line, and felt that it crushed under the pressure of the rope clutch. I taper the ends of the cord to help minimize loss of strength.


For cover, I used to buy it from Annapolis Performance Sailing before they went out of business. Unlike Jedi, I have been unable to find a retail source for raw cover. But I have plenty of 3/8" line that has enough bad spots that I can cut out good parts for the cover.


I bought a set of hollow stainless knitting needles on eBay ranging from about 3 mm to 8 mm. I have found these make outstanding fids for working the lines through. I have also found that a piece of 1 mm or perhaps 2 mm dyneema is a very good line for pulling long lengths through.


I won't deny that it's a lot of work. But on most of my lines where I have 10 to 20 ft of cover and core added, It has been possible and very satisfying. Note that 10 to 20 ft may sound like a lot, but on a halyard that is 100 ft long or spinnaker sheets that are 70 ft long, the savings in weight and, more importantly, the volume of line is significant.

[s/v Jedi]

Couple more related pictures. Note that this Flemish splice with outer braid only is to tie a messenger line to a halyard.