Jib and staysail vs genoa? What to choose?

[MJF]

The key is to get the necessary tension onto the luff. Considering your ketch rig, the loads shouldn't be too high, I think.


For our Code Sail we specced a Profurl Nex6.5 Swivel lock at the mast head and a Profurl Nex6.5 continuous line furling spool on a 2:1 tack. Maybe you can do away with the swivel lock, if you have a 2:1 halyard.



The genoa is also on a swivel lock, Profurl Nex8, but at the tack there is a Profurl Nex8 single line furling drum instead of a spool. In between there is an anti torsion cable and the 4:1 tack with a jammer will give good luff tension and little sag. It will barely overlap the mast.



I don't know how much more sail area you can squeeze out, if you move the tack forward considering your jib is already rigged at the mast top, right? You have a narrow boat, so maybe the sheeting angle for a potential code sail could be better than for beamier boats.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

The Daschew design philosophy was always to motor sail upwind. His boats were designed to reach with short rigs, narrow beam and shallow ish keels. It is what it is. So to help with upwind work in the lighter stuff your only option is to go to a larger headsail or a taller rig and deeper keel. Eek $$$$$

Given that I would have a "code zero" made that is essentially straight luffed with a mid girth of 60%. This is your only realistic option to add power to the sail plan for light upwind work. And it's not worth the bother to put up the mizzen for upwind work.

Reaching your fine, better then most actually. Your split sail plan is an envy for those conditions.

Running you have the same problem with the short rig. (ie. unable to project sail area).

We all like our own boats and every one of them has strengths and weaknesses.

The motorsailing is for wind angles of as little as 15 degrees apparent, using only the mainsail and engine.

Like I wrote above, our upwind performance is about equal to a 47’ performance sloop, which is just fine for us…. but in light airs we want more.

Our mizzen provides 30% of VMG while upwind sailing. We can actually sail and tack upwind with only main and mizzen, without the headsail. The reason we get lots of drive out of the mizzen is the big separation between main and mizzen masts, creating a real extra sail rather than a flap for the main.

This is also the reason our mizzen is large: the luff is less than 6’ shorter than the main and the foot 2.5’ less. The roach is larger than that of the main, resulting in a 42” roach.

A code zero? I studied these and found that you can’t point higher than a close reach at best?

[s/v Jedi]

By the way, for heavy weather sailing of Sundeer, here’s a great video from one of our sisterships crossing the North Atlantic in winter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAo5_JGd1Wc

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Joli

The Daschew design philosophy was always to motor sail upwind. His boats were designed to reach with short rigs, narrow beam and shallow ish keels. It is what it is. So to help with upwind work in the lighter stuff your only option is to go to a larger headsail or a taller rig and deeper keel. Eek $$$$$. . .

And the Dashew design philosophy is good.


Nick, as we now understand, is looking for sailing performance upwind in very light conditions.



Upwind you will produce apparent wind, especially with such a long waterline. If your working sails are good (have you gone to laminates by now, or not?), they should be more than sufficient.



My advice to Nick: Your regular working sails, if you have decent ones, should be great upwind in light conditions. If they're not doing the trick, then crank up Mr. Yanmar, as God and Steve Dashew intended. If your working sails are sub-optimal, then better spend your money on upgrading them to decent laminate ones, than on some specialized light wind sails.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And the Dashew design philosophy is good.

Nick, as we now understand, is looking for sailing performance upwind in very light conditions.

Upwind you will produce apparent wind, especially with such a long waterline. If your working sails are good (have you gone to laminates by now, or not?), they should be more than sufficient.

My advice to Nick: Your regular working sails, if you have decent ones, should be great upwind in light conditions. If they're not doing the trick, then crank up Mr. Yanmar, as God and Steve Dashew intended. If your working sails are sub-optimal, then better spend your money on upgrading them to decent laminate ones, than on some specialized light wind sails.

My sails are tri-radial from Hydranet material. For my main and mizzen, this is fine, but the jib was designed for reinforced trade winds and simply too heavy.

After the hurricane season I will do a lot of measurements to see how much I can extend the foot of the working jib without interfering with standing rigging; basically if I can put a nice genoa on and a light laminate will be at the top of my list. With my current 106%, I must be able to do 110-115% I would think.

Using the Yanmar is not acceptable, nor is Dashew’s habit of motorsailing whenever speed dropped under 6 knots. If the wind simply doesn’t support any progress, not even with light weather sails, then I’d rather just float there for days instead of motoring.

I did use the 15 degree angle motorsailing when we started, for tough passages on the thorny path, but I since found that I prefer to just sail around those areas or wait for better weather.

I want to limit use of the engine to close quarters maneuvering in marinas or busy anchorages. I have sailed into marinas in the past.

[Lee Jerry]

In my opinion, you need to increase the size of a single headsail (genoa). I'm not a fan of the staysail option for light air, because in my experience you want to open the sail plan and reduce drag / disturbance - there isn't enough wind force in general to fill all the sails, especially with the low AWA of beating.

That leaves two options: increase the genoa on the forestay or add a sail forward of it (leaving the genoa furled).

So the first is to increase the genoa to something up to 135%. IMO, if you were to do this, it would be standard weight material it would just become your new genoa (even though you have a perfectly good 105%, but I don't have room to store lots of extra sails.) The extra area would be beneficial at other times, too.

You seem to have a great arrangement for the other option of adding a forward sail off of the short sprit. It doesn't really matter what you call it, Code 0 or drifter or light air genoa or whatever. (A racing Code 0 has to measure in as a spinnaker and therefore typically is limited to a tight reach, but a cruising "Code 0" doesn't have that limitation and could sail higher.) So something of lighter material on a furler to launch as needed (or even leave there for extended periods until you want to use a different sail on the sprit).

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Very nice, I need to read up on “drifters”

+1 Yep, an old school hank on drifter in the 120% range would be the way to go.

[JPA Cate]

The old school drifters I've had experience were not sails we used close hauled. They were for keeping the boat moving in very light airs. What people used for close hauled were 165% light air headsails. Our PJ36 came with a light air 165 and a heavy one. It weighed so much I couldn't get it out by myself!

I think Jedi would do well with a light air laminate that will help keep the head up. Having it set from a long sprit might very well help, but it's going to be tricky to get it right. Here's where having a knowledgeable sailmaker you have a good relationship with really helps.

Ann

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

In my opinion, you need to increase the size of a single headsail (genoa). I'm not a fan of the staysail option for light air, because in my experience you want to open the sail plan and reduce drag / disturbance - there isn't enough wind force in general to fill all the sails, especially with the low AWA of beating.

That leaves two options: increase the genoa on the forestay or add a sail forward of it (leaving the genoa furled).

So the first is to increase the genoa to something up to 135%. IMO, if you were to do this, it would be standard weight material it would just become your new genoa (even though you have a perfectly good 105%, but I don't have room to store lots of extra sails.) The extra area would be beneficial at other times, too.

You seem to have a great arrangement for the other option of adding a forward sail off of the short sprit. It doesn't really matter what you call it, Code 0 or drifter or light air genoa or whatever. (A racing Code 0 has to measure in as a spinnaker and therefore typically is limited to a tight reach, but a cruising "Code 0" doesn't have that limitation and could sail higher.) So something of lighter material on a furler to launch as needed (or even leave there for extended periods until you want to use a different sail on the sprit).

Isn’t that called a screecher? I heard a code zero is sheeted outside the capshrouds and the screecher inside?

And isn’t that the same as a drifter? Drifter doesn’t sound upwind to me, but the picture from Panope looks good…

Maybe related is the downwind run issue that we have due to aft swept spreaders and much reliance on the asymmetric spinnaker. We do have a symmetric spinnaker but for light weather this isn’t enough either. I had already accepted the gybing downwind method but now I saw someone put the asymmetric sheet through the end of the main boom that was used as a pole, and a genoa on the other side poled out with the spinnaker pole…. or even two spinnakers out there, the the symmetric tack on another tack line or that Tacker thinghy from ATN… which I also have.

A good light weather upwind sail like a screecher (?) is no good downwind I suppose, so it would not do well poled out?

I have a large sail storage incl. 4 bins that I can hoist spinnakers from or drop them back in. I plan to change it all, keeping two bins that are usable short handed. Our spinnakers are in socks.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by MJF

The key is to get the necessary tension onto the luff. Considering your ketch rig, the loads shouldn't be too high, I think.

For our Code Sail we specced a Profurl Nex6.5 Swivel lock at the mast head and a Profurl Nex6.5 continuous line furling spool on a 2:1 tack. Maybe you can do away with the swivel lock, if you have a 2:1 halyard.

The genoa is also on a swivel lock, Profurl Nex8, but at the tack there is a Profurl Nex8 single line furling drum instead of a spool. In between there is an anti torsion cable and the 4:1 tack with a jammer will give good luff tension and little sag. It will barely overlap the mast.

I don't know how much more sail area you can squeeze out, if you move the tack forward considering your jib is already rigged at the mast top, right? You have a narrow boat, so maybe the sheeting angle for a potential code sail could be better than for beamier boats.

A cruising code zero kind of sail that can do upwind with inboard sheeting angle on a roller on a bowsprit is certainly an option. Our furling jib is a masthead sail but we have two spinnaker halyards on a forward crane at the masthead.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

The old school drifters I've had experience were not sails we used close hauled. They were for keeping the boat moving in very light airs. What people used for close hauled were 165% light air headsails. Our PJ36 came with a light air 165 and a heavy one. It weighed so much I couldn't get it out by myself!

I think Jedi would do well with a light air laminate that will help keep the head up. Having it set from a long sprit might very well help, but it's going to be tricky to get it right. Here's where having a knowledgeable sailmaker you have a good relationship with really helps.

Ann

The light air laminate also sounds like a good option. I think I would put that on my furling forestay, leaving the bowsprit for reaching sails.

I now remember seeing a Sundeer hoisting the staysail on the mizzen in light air… another thing to try

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A cruising code zero kind of sail that can do upwind with inboard sheeting angle on a roller on a bowsprit is certainly an option. Our furling jib is a masthead sail but we have two spinnaker halyards on a forward crane at the masthead.

Oh wait, this triggers a memory… I used to sail a hank-on sloop with 110% and 135% headsails. With the 135% we always had to go forward to pull the foot inside the pulpit…. We now have an open pulpit so can do this from a bowsprit furler and in light weather it shouldn’t be a problem having to go to the bow, but it is a thing that isn’t needed when running from the forestay furler I think…

[Panope]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

And isn’t that the same as a drifter? Drifter doesn’t sound upwind to me, but the picture from Panope looks good…

A drifter can be cut flat for upwind work.

My sailmaker (Carrol Hasse, now retired) highly recommends a flat cut Drifter for light, upwind work.

The nylon drifter that she made for me will hold its shape up to about 12 knots when close hauled. Off the wind, it is good into the mid teens.

The cool thing about Nylon, is that it returns to its original shape after being stretched.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Isn’t that called a screecher? I heard a code zero is sheeted outside the capshrouds and the screecher inside?

And isn’t that the same as a drifter? Drifter doesn’t sound upwind to me, but the picture from Panope looks good…

I'm less concerned with what it's called; people use the terms differently. I think the details of the sail might help distinguish, but yours haven't been determined yet. That said, I would go with "light air genoa," sheeted outside the shrouds since it will be >100%, and made of light(er) material. Like shown here:

Hylas 46 Muf of Hamble.jpg Views: 44 Size: 136.7 KB ID: 276861" style="margin: 2px" />

Note they appear to be going upwind, with the boom on/near CL. Or this one, with the sail not in use:

Hylas 46 Kokopelli.jpg Views: 48 Size: 400.1 KB ID: 276862" style="margin: 2px" />

For this one, note that the forward sail has a smaller furled diameter than the (presumably) much smaller furled staysail.

Obviously, neither of these are off of a sprit, like you could).

A good light weather upwind sail like a screecher (?) is no good downwind I suppose, so it would not do well poled out?

"No good" might be an exaggeration. But generally, depending on the sail, it could still be helpful downwind. Consider a standard genoa, designed for upwind performance but can be poled out downwind.

I have a large sail storage incl. 4 bins that I can hoist spinnakers from or drop them back in. I plan to change it all, keeping two bins that are usable short handed. Our spinnakers are in socks.

Quit showing off.

[SailingHarmonie]

In my experience with cutters, a single large genoa, has always been better at generating VMG to windward in light winds that trying to fly two headsails. Always. Although I have obviously not sailed every cutter out there, so yours might be different...

Although it is not generally cruiser friendly, you'll do best with a lighter weight genoa, and with a deck swapping cut... if your rig allows it.

I have found that the range of wind speeds and angle where carrying BOTH headsails is useful is really small.

With two headsails flying while beating it is easy to end up with leehelm. When that happens, you end up making extra leeway, that chews up VMG but is really hard to see on instruments.

[Joli]

You asked for advice on sailing upwind with a boat that has a short rig. The only option is to power up is via the headsail.

A small girth code sail is used by race boats in light air to sail upwind. It sheets outside the cap shroud like any other sail with overlap.

You roll it up and drop it when the breeze is on. It sits in the bin till you need it again.

Do you guys race much?