Jib and staysail vs genoa? What to choose?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And the Dashew design philosophy is good.


Nick, as we now understand, is looking for sailing performance upwind in very light conditions.

I didn't say the Daschew design philosophy wasn't good.

I said his easiest option was to add a code sail with a straight luff and minimum girth,
TO GO UPWIND IN LIGHT AIR!

[Ween]

not sure what I can contribute here but I have true cutter, mast at the middle of the boat and I have decisions to make about the light/downwind setup. Hydranet sails. 105 “beefy” yankee jib. full somewhat lighter build staysail. both on furlers. The mid-ship mast dictates a short boom. 328ft2 full batten tri-radial main.

so my boat has a lot of foresail area. it performs almost the same upwind motor sailing under only main or only jib. no need for both ever.

anything forward of 110 degrees apparent and deploying the staysail into the slot is a big improvement. The super-high yankee gap needs to be filled and the staysail sets up the slot for the main perfectly.

one nice thing about the yankee is the cut makes it so when you furl the jib sheet car doesn’t need adjusting,

with 2 or 3 reefs the boat performs the same or better if the jib is furled and the staysail fully deployed.

really sporty upwind motor sailing is best with just staysail. I hate motor sailing.

the problem with this whole setup is 130-140+ deep broad reach and downwind especially light wind. Light for my boat is under 10k true.

I have a big north asym and enough bowsprit forward of the jib furler (more than a foot) that it works well.

but I have this gap still in light wind 120-150 that I imagine is the code zero spot. I can’t bring myself to add this with a top-down furl setup as i have limited room for more sails.

a lighter full “real” genoa wouldn’t really work with my rig , tracks, stays and such.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Ween

not sure what I can contribute here but I have true cutter, mast at the middle of the boat and I have decisions to make about the light/downwind setup. Hydranet sails. 105 “beefy” yankee jib. full somewhat lighter build staysail. both on furlers. The mid-ship mast dictates a short boom. 328ft2 full batten tri-radial main.

so my boat has a lot of foresail area. it performs almost the same upwind motor sailing under only main or only jib. no need for both ever.

anything forward of 110 degrees apparent and deploying the staysail into the slot is a big improvement. The super-high yankee gap needs to be filled and the staysail sets up the slot for the main perfectly.

one nice thing about the yankee is the cut makes it so when you furl the jib sheet car doesn’t need adjusting,

with 2 or 3 reefs the boat performs the same or better if the jib is furled and the staysail fully deployed.

really sporty upwind motor sailing is best with just staysail. I hate motor sailing.

the problem with this whole setup is 130-140+ deep broad reach and downwind especially light wind. Light for my boat is under 10k true.

I have a big north asym and enough bowsprit forward of the jib furler (more than a foot) that it works well.

but I have this gap still in light wind 120-150 that I imagine is the code zero spot. I can’t bring myself to add this with a top-down furl setup as i have limited room for more sails.

a lighter full “real” genoa wouldn’t really work with my rig , tracks, stays and such.

Add a spinnaker pole and rotate your asymmetrical spinnaker aft. You have to project sail to go downwind. Unless you're fast enough to pull the apparent wind forward. Most cruising boats can't.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, I think I’m getting the picture: two options or probably best is to do both:

1. Replace jib with a light weather oriented version, optimize surface area and shape, to sit on the furling forestay and sheeted inboard like current jib.

2. A genoa/code sail/screecher/drifter kind of sail, on a top-down furler from the bowsprit.

Option 1 is kind of a no-brainer, in line with DockHead comments on optimizing what we have for light weather. The only costs involved is for the sail.

Option 2 includes a not so cheap furler that I don’t seem to have any other use for, but it will greatly extend our upwind capability in light air.

While typing this, the thought of doing option 1 first, then decide if I miss option 2 enough for taking that step comes to mind.

What would be my best option for sail material, cut etc. for option one? A laminate or a molded sail? Friends have those 3Di and are loving it… but laminates I had in the past were great, until they delaminated. I am told today’s laminates are much better?

For option two, does anyone have a link to such a sail? I didn’t find one yet, most code sails are for reaching.

About racing: no, Jedi has never been raced. It’s our home and I don’t plan to race her. I have done most racing in dinghies, crewing in Flying Dutchman and Tornado and competing in my Laser for years until I switched to windsurfing.
On bigger boats I only did club racing on my father’s 30-footer but there were no code sails in those days…. this is the hank-on sloop I mentioned earlier with 135% genoa.

About the sail locker we have: I wasn’t showing off… I was answering someone who asked. It’s hard to keep track of who is saying/asking what so I am mixing up my answers

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

Add a spinnaker pole and rotate your asymmetrical spinnaker aft. You have to project sail to go downwind. Unless you're fast enough to pull the apparent wind forward. Most cruising boats can't.

Yes, there are YouTube videos showing this and it obviously works well. They have the pole pointed down, looks weird but it’s effective

[s/v Jedi]

Some additional pictures:

1 - Sundeer 64 working sails upwind (check out position of genoa track)
2 - Original Sundeer 67 has a higher clew?! That’s a yankee, right?
3 - a predecessor design from Dashew showing two spinnakers, one sheeted through the end of the main boom plus a genoa poled out (came up earlier in the thread)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, I think I’m getting the picture: two options or probably best is to do both:

1. Replace jib with a light weather oriented version, optimize surface area and shape, to sit on the furling forestay and sheeted inboard like current jib.

2. A genoa/code sail/screecher/drifter kind of sail, on a top-down furler from the bowsprit.

Option 1 is kind of a no-brainer, in line with DockHead comments on optimizing what we have for light weather. The only costs involved is for the sail.

Option 2 includes a not so cheap furler that I don’t seem to have any other use for, but it will greatly extend our upwind capability in light air.

While typing this, the thought of doing option 1 first, then decide if I miss option 2 enough for taking that step comes to mind.

What would be my best option for sail material, cut etc. for option one? A laminate or a molded sail? Friends have those 3Di and are loving it… but laminates I had in the past were great, until they delaminated. I am told today’s laminates are much better?

For option two, does anyone have a link to such a sail? I didn’t find one yet, most code sails are for reaching.

About racing: no, Jedi has never been raced. It’s our home and I don’t plan to race her. I have done most racing in dinghies, crewing in Flying Dutchman and Tornado and competing in my Laser for years until I switched to windsurfing.
On bigger boats I only did club racing on my father’s 30-footer but there were no code sails in those days…. this is the hank-on sloop I mentioned earlier with 135% genoa.

About the sail locker we have: I wasn’t showing off… I was answering someone who asked. It’s hard to keep track of who is saying/asking what so I am mixing up my answers

Sounds like you're on the right track You've gotten a lot of good advice.

What concerns materials -- I, personally, will never buy another working sail made of any woven material. The laminate materials are vastly improved since the first generation of them. They are now built in autoclaves and seem to be immune to delamination. I had my first set of laminate working sails made in 2015 and have now 8 years and several tens of thousands of miles on them, and other than UV damage to the mainsail (necessitating its replacement this year, unfortunately), they are still in perfect condition with shape not one iota different from when they were new. And this despite a lot of hard sailing in strong conditions at high latitudes.

What you want is cruising laminate with taffeta on both sides, radial cut. You don't have in-mast furling so you don't especially need the dyneema taffeta. The taffeta takes back some of the profound advantage of laminates in terms of weight, but will still be much lighter and more flexible than any woven sail. The taffeta protects the laminate from UV and chafe.



My mainsail was ruined because it did not have a UV strip on it, and sun gets into the wide slot of the Selden in-mast furler. A real shame, as the sail was still in nearly perfect condition otherwise. A costly mistake. The new one will have a UV strip.


If you decide to go with the option to acquire a light wind sail for your regular furler, I would suggest you want an extra light, light wind only genoa, and stick with a high aspect non-overlapping working jib (or yankee) for most times.

Benefit of my mistake!! I have both an overlapping yankee and a blade, both made of carbon laminate, and I had the yankee made up to the original specifications for my boat, which means it is strong enough for strong weather, which means it's sub-optimal in really light conditions, which as it turns out is all I need it for . The non-overlapping blade is an extremely versatile sail which is perfect for 90% of conditions, much better upwind than the overlapping yankee, much less heeling with no less power in anything but extremely light conditions, easier to tack, etc. I mistakenly thought I would be using it only as a specialized upwind sail but it turns out I use it 90% of the time.

As to light genoa vs. code sail -- I think the code sail, lighter, and larger, will perform better for your specialized light wind upwind sailing.* You've got the bowsprit. The big question is will it be easier to handle, or harder? Changing the headsail on my boat is quite an operation, needing really three people. Your rig is a lot shorter than mine, so maybe easier for you. The code sail, depending on the furling system you use, and depending on your storage arrangement, could be easier to handle. Or not. That will need some thought.


*Note however that tacking to get somewhere which is dead upwind in really light conditions is a bit of a fool's errand. Because leeway increases at low speeds.

[HeinSdL]

Interesting conversation, mainly to pick up on the large variety of options... No idea about most of them. At the start of the conversation I would have suggested a No1 genoa (130%) but difficult to combine with an already in place 110% furling headsail...

On my boat I used to make do with No 1, 3 and 4 genoas but to make the experience less chaotic for the family now have the 110% furling headsail which does the job in most cases. Thinking of going back to the more performance focused numbered sails though.

[s/v Jedi]

Looking at North Sails website. They have what they call NPL which is their laminate. Made in Sri Lanka and lots of hype. Does anyone have experiences with this laminate?

DockHead, which laminate do you have?

Also, opinions or experiences about 3Di molded jibs?

[s/v Jedi]

Looking at the Sobstad website…. they advertise their “clew radial” cut sails. From a quick search I found positive experiences, but wonder if anyone here has this?

What to expect for pricing differences between lofts? They all seem to make the sails in Asia? Are people still ordering from Lee Sails direct and do they do laminate sails?

It has been a ling time since I ordered sails and I guess it shows

[HeinSdL]

Well for my furler headsail I have North Sails UltraX which is in between NPL and 3Di. I got a quote for all three types and chose the compromise pretty much in line with how North Sails describes the materials here:
https://www.northsails.com/blogs/nor...s-for-cruising

But speaking to some of my sailing friends back home, it seems that all these sails are now made in Asia (as mine was), quality is pretty similar across the brands and in their opinion the badge on the sail is now just... a badge.

[fxykty]

If you decide for option 2 (a flat screecher/gennaker/code 0 set from the inner bow sprit for light air upwind) then there are three points:
1) use a bottom up furler. Top down furlers are for sails with lots of depth up top, which is not what your sail will have.
2) make sure it’s not too big! If it generates too much speed and sheets outside the cap shrouds (albeit your boat is narrow) you will generate too much speed and your VMG will be not much good. It should be just big enough (maybe 120%?) to generate enough power to get your boat moving at a decent pace in 4-8 knots TWS, but not too fast.
3) some sort of high modulus material either laminate or moulded. Moulded will be lighter, depending on how much protection you specify (polyester taffetas and foot/leech UV strips).

We’ve got a 95% self-tacking jib and lack upwind power 4-8 knots TWS. Most of the time the self-tacking jib is plenty big and we’re happy the original owner didn’t specify an overlapping genoa. We have a huge (120sqm) screecher that has a 8* sheeting angle and can sail to 42*AWA. Unfortunately it generates too much speed, making 80* TWA. It works great for reaching and even moderate air running. Our next sail will be a much smaller (~65sqm) screecher for light upwind that will sheet inside the shroud to the aft end of the cabin top for a 4.5* sheeting angle. As soon as we see 14 knots AWS it’s getting furled.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

Well for my furler headsail I have North Sails UltraX which is in between NPL and 3Di. I got a quote for all three types and chose the compromise pretty much in line with how North Sails describes the materials here:
https://www.northsails.com/blogs/nor...s-for-cruising

But speaking to some of my sailing friends back home, it seems that all these sails are now made in Asia (as mine was), quality is pretty similar across the brands and in their opinion the badge on the sail is now just... a badge.

Thanks! The article writes that UltraX is more expensive than the cruising 3Di sails…. I think maybe these are new 3Di options?

Looking at this jib, this is what I need, right?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Looking at North Sails website. They have what they call NPL which is their laminate. Made in Sri Lanka and lots of hype. Does anyone have experiences with this laminate?



DockHead, which laminate do you have?



Also, opinions or experiences about 3Di molded jibs?

My sails are Bainbridge CL Diax, a carbon-technora laminate with Dyneema taffeta which unfortunately is no longer made.

No direct knowledge of the North NPL, but the specs look good. The material looks exactly like my sails.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, I think I’m getting the picture: two options or probably best is to do both:



1. Replace jib with a light weather oriented version, optimize surface area and shape, to sit on the furling forestay and sheeted inboard like current jib.



2. A genoa/code sail/screecher/drifter kind of sail, on a top-down furler from the bowsprit.



Option 1 is kind of a no-brainer, in line with DockHead comments on optimizing what we have for light weather. The only costs involved is for the sail.



Option 2 includes a not so cheap furler that I don’t seem to have any other use for, but it will greatly extend our upwind capability in light air.



While typing this, the thought of doing option 1 first, then decide if I miss option 2 enough for taking that step comes to mind.



….

Drifter falls into option 1 not 2.

In past usage of the term drifters are lightweight genoas, usually nylon,set on the headstay with a small number of hanks, occasionally set flying.

Sail is comparatively light making handling easier and being nylon is harder to blow out if abused some.

Since you have a headstay furler have one built with a luff tape instead of hanks.

I would go with a drifter cut flat for upwind sailing. You can still reach with it, you can even run with it poled out.

And it’s a lot cheaper than things like a CodeZero which generally come with auxiliary hardware like furlers.