Jib and staysail vs genoa? What to choose?

[s/v Jedi]

I am checking on my sail inventory for light weather conditions. The difficulty is for upwind sailing.

We have a cutter-rigged ketch with a fixed cutter stay.

On the forestay we have a roller furling 105% jib, which is heavy duty but tri-radial cut from Hydranet material. It’s pretty nice.

On the cutterstay we can hoist a staysail which is meant for heavy weather. I once tested it and found you need a minimum of 25kts wind before using it instead of the roller furling jib.

For main and mizzen we have large roach, full batten sails which work well for upwind, but of course it’s a ketch so performance is less than a sloop. We estimate our upwind performance about equal to a Beneteau First 47 at 15kts wind.

My first action point is to replace my genoa sheets with 10mm light weather sheets. Now I’m thinking what else we can do in the fore triangle: buy a light weather staysail or a larger roller furling genoa?

Both choices have issues. We will probably spend lots of time in light weather conditions so if a staysail would be chosen, I would probably want a roller furler for it. For a larger genoa, we would have to take down the jib and replace it with the genoa, so no quick sail plan change.

As I have zero experience with cutters, cutter-sloops etc., I also have no clue on what is the best path forward or if a staysail even works with a 105% jib on the forestay instead of a yankee etc.?

Help!

[Benz]

If you're going to use the staysail as a working sail rather than just a heavy-weather option, then you'll prefer a yankee-cut jib: one slots the air to the next, which slots it to the main. if your jib is too big, it kind of kills the joy of the staysail. You'll want to talk to a sailmaker who can design the perfect ratio of one sail to the other to get what you want.

For lighter conditions, you'll want one (or several) spinnaker/screecher/asym sort of sails. Also, a mizzen staysail is nice option for light winds on a ketch.

[MJF]

Can you fly an upwind capable Genoa on an anti torsion cable from your bowsprit forward of the forestay?
Maybe use the spinnaker halyard if it is 2:1 and have a 3:1 tack to get the needed tension.
You could add another halyard at the mast top and fly this sail from an external swivel lock.
I don’t know if this is possible if your forestay attaches at the masthead.

My Solent stay will be rod with roller reefing. It attaches to the mast a couple of meters below the top and a meter aft of the bow. Between masthead and bow, I will fly a masthead genoa on an external swivel lock with an anti torsion cable and 4:1 tack. This sail will have a single line furling drum and can’t be reefed, but I can drop it to the deck when it is furled.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Benz

If you're going to use the staysail as a working sail rather than just a heavy-weather option, then you'll prefer a yankee-cut jib: one slots the air to the next, which slots it to the main. if your jib is too big, it kind of kills the joy of the staysail. You'll want to talk to a sailmaker who can design the perfect ratio of one sail to the other to get what you want.

For lighter conditions, you'll want one (or several) spinnaker/screecher/asym sort of sails. Also, a mizzen staysail is nice option for light winds on a ketch.

This, exactly.

If you're only going to carry one light weather sail, my choice is an A2 assy with a long pole. This is a very versatile and easy to use sail which will work (with the pole squared forward and a jockey pole to get the right guy angle) on a close-ish reach. You can also use them without a pole if you have a way (like a bowsprit) to get the tack clear of the bow pulpit, but I like the pole, which I feel gives a lot more control.

I feel the assy is most useful because your biggest problems in light conditions are going to be with the wind far enough abaft the beam that you can't generate apparent wind. With my 120% yankee jib (which I use only for racing or for light wind upwind) on a close reach I can work up some apparent wind down to wind speeds below which it's just not worth it, in my opinion, if you're not racing. My normal principle headsail is 95% blade. Both these sails carbon laminate.


The most useful light wind sail for a close reach would probably be a cruising code 0 or a drifter, but I don't bother with this because I have limited storage space for sails, and anyway I can sail up to about 60 AWA with my A2 and long pole, so why screw around with it. The A2 is medium weight nylon, is light and easy to handle, easy to launch and retrieve (I have a sock but don't usually bother with it), and does not require taking down another sail (which is a lot of work on my boat).


We crossed the Atlantic last year on a Discovery 67 which had a Solent rig with a light genoa on the foremost forestay and a self-tacking blade on the other, and a "cruising chute" in a sock which is similar to the A2 but lighter and fuller cut. We used the cruising chute probably 80% of the miles of the crossing. The light genoa is useful, but as I sail in high latitudes I would not trade my heavy staysail for it on my own boat.


For you Nick I would suggest an A2 or cruising chute, and a long pole. You have a shorter rig than I do so this will be a piece of cake for you to manage. IIRC the Sundeer has a dedicated sail locker which you could launch the sail from (something I wish to hell I had).

[hpeer]

I have a couple of thoughts.

We bought a ReefRite furler and it makes sail changes far easier. Think of it as a hank on that furls. It uses slugs to attach the sail to the foil and you would have to convert your sails to this system. But the effort to change sails is a small fraction of that needed with a traditional foil. There are other advantages. I far prefer it to a ProFurl for many reasons.

What is your separation between fore stay and inner stay? We have about 5 feet and it is not much of an issue to tack.

I prefer hank in staysail because it is dead simple but also you have a larger triangle if the sail is lower. Larger sail are will make it effective at lower wind speed. And have a reef point included.

You may also want to consider the idea of using a smaller headsail but flying the staysail more to make up the lost area. Perhaps consider a less than full lift genoa/working jib that works with a deck sweeper staysail. I don’t know if that works with your boat but it was an improvement on our full keel cutter (44’ LOD, 49’ LOA sparred).

There is a great deal of difference between our boats so I can not recommend anything, but just share things from our experience. And I am a relatively new sailor so am still learning.

The PO had bought a heavy (13oz US) over lapping genoa, maybe 110%. This sail
would not set in light winds. Nor did it work well with the boats balance. We switched to a lighter working jib, high cut, with a 5’ top pendant, and picked up performance across the wind range. I also switched from a boomed staysail but with 3’ longer luff. The over all effect was to lower to center of effort and pull it forward, the boat sails flattered and faster. I do fly the staysail often with the working jib. I do have a lighter weight (7oz) genoa for light wind sailing, that gives me some weather helm, I will be switching to a top pendant on that also to move the CE down and forward.

No clue if this helps your situation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hpeer

. . . You may also want to consider the idea of using a smaller headsail but flying the staysail more to make up the lost area. Perhaps consider a less than full lift genoa/working jib that works with a deck sweeper staysail. I don’t know if that works with your boat but it was an improvement on our full keel cutter (44’ LOD, 49’ LOA sparred).

That's good advice. My boat was delivered with a 120% high cut yankee and heavy staysail intended to double as a storm jib. I had new sails made some years ago and besides a new yankee I had a 95% blade made, which I envisioned using only for upwind work in heavier weather.


As it turns out, the blade is much more versatile than I expected, and I use it 90% of the time. You are right that it combines very well with the stailsail.


Only thing I would certainly advise full lift, as that maximizes the aspect ratio. The higher aspect ratio of the blade is why its power is astonishingly close to that of the yankee over a wide range of conditions, just with less heel, and more close-winded. The staysail lets you add sail area when needed. I love cutters.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Benz

If you're going to use the staysail as a working sail rather than just a heavy-weather option, then you'll prefer a yankee-cut jib: one slots the air to the next, which slots it to the main. if your jib is too big, it kind of kills the joy of the staysail.

Beat me to it, yes.
And on one trip I did on a Ketch we got kind of beat-up during a day, so we were all tired.
That night we took down the main and jib, sheeted-in the mizzen pretty flat and just jogged along all night under staysail and mizzen.
had a nice ride so everyone could rest easy.

[donradcliffe]

Use what the racers use. A larger deck sweeping genoa without a staysail. Perhaps 130%, with a foam luff that keep the shape reasonable when furled down to 100%.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, some more info:

We have a big asymmetric spinnaker that we fly from a 10’ / 3 meter bowsprit. We also have a symmetric spinnaker that we have the spinnaker pole for, as well as a jockey pole.

We also have a rather big asymmetric mizzen spinnaker that we fly from either the toe rail or the inner coaming. We even have tackles to fly it from centerline.

For anything from close to broad reach we are settled. We are a monster on thise wind angles, with a design speed of 26 knots.

My issue is upwind performance, our weak point, which I want to improve for light winds, say up to 12kts wind or so. At 15kts we get maximum performance with working sails.

Also, I do not want to convert to a cutter. We don’t need the sail plan flexibility of a cutter because we are a ketch and have plenty of that. I need a light wind solution.

It seems the staysail is out in that case. I saw suggestions for a large genoa or a free flying genoa? Besides the 10’ bowsprit, I also have a 2.5’ bowsprit that is fixed and I’m considering having my big A2 recut to fly from there instead of the bowsprit.

Included pictures show a sistership close reaching (with crosscut sails) and Beowul under double spinnakers. Beowulf is the larger version of our boat and has an articulating bowsprit. It shows really well how we are rigged for downwind.

So do I need a furler for a free flying genoa? I thought these were code zero and only for close reach, not upwind?

[Panope]

Last season I added a 6 foot bowsprit and experimented with several sizes of headsails on the two forestays.


Result: A larger, single headsail was noticably better upwind than two smaller sails.

For light air UPWIND work I would (I will) get a drifter with the luff attached to the stay, not free flying.

Tacking the larger sail around the inner headstay can be a pain in the butt.

[Panope]

Continuing my above post:

One of my experiments involved my old (small) drifter, a blue tarp, and a roll of blue duct tape, where a temporary foot was added as a test.

The blue tarp addition disintegrated after a couple hours but not before some valuable information was gathered.

I called it the FrankenDrifter.

[Cheechako]

I dont think you need a true Yankee to use the Staysail effectively. The 110% -115% I've used forward worked well with my Staysail on 2 boats. It's high cut a bit, on a pendant too, but not a minimal size true Yankee.
The beauty of my Staysail when I rolled the high cut 110 was at 25 or up, it moved the boat nice and fast but flat without excessive healing. (see avatar)

[Joli]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I am checking on my sail inventory for light weather conditions. The difficulty is for upwind sailing.

Help!

The Daschew design philosophy was always to motor sail upwind. His boats were designed to reach with short rigs, narrow beam and shallow ish keels. It is what it is. So to help with upwind work in the lighter stuff your only option is to go to a larger headsail or a taller rig and deeper keel. Eek $$$$$

Given that I would have a "code zero" made that is essentially straight luffed with a mid girth of 60%. This is your only realistic option to add power to the sail plan for light upwind work. And it's not worth the bother to put up the mizzen for upwind work.

Reaching your fine, better then most actually. Your split sail plan is an envy for those conditions.

Running you have the same problem with the short rig. (ie. unable to project sail area).

We all like our own boats and every one of them has strengths and weaknesses.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Panope

Continuing my above post:

One of my experiments involved my old (small) drifter, a blue tarp, and a roll of blue duct tape, where a temporary foot was added as a test.

The blue tarp addition disintegrated after a couple hours but not before some valuable information was gathered.

I called it the FrankenDrifter.

Very nice, I need to read up on “drifters”

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I dont think you need a true Yankee to use the Staysail effectively. The 110% -115% I've used forward worked well with my Staysail on 2 boats. It's high cut a bit, on a pendant too, but not a minimal size true Yankee.
The beauty of my Staysail when I rolled the high cut 110 was at 25 or up, it moved the boat nice and fast but flat without excessive healing. (see avatar)

Yes, when testing the staysail I noticed the speed increase without much extra heel… it felt like nothing extra over the main and mizzen

But I think my jib isn’t anything like a yankee… it’s rather high aspect.