Jib sizes for hank-ons

[Cthoops]

We're leaving in nine months and twenty-nine days - can't come soon enough! The plan is to head down to the Caribbean and then who knows - maybe stay there, maybe continue on.

We have a Bristol 29.9 with a hank-on jib and we're getting new sails this winter. Thinking of a 100 jib and an 85 for heavier (not storm) winds. We'll also have a drifter for light air. Thoughts on the sail sizes? Getting a furler is not going to happen, so please don't try to convince us to do so.

Thanks.

[Sailmonkey]

When we took off the first time with hank on headsails (allied seawind II) we carried a 135%, a 110% and a yankee cut 90%.

On our boat, for tradewind sailing, the 110% is the working sail. The yankee 90 does really well in winds over 25-30 knots however cannot be carried above a beam reach (constrained be sheeting angles).

[txg]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

Getting a furler is not going to happen, so please don't try to convince us to do so.

Good choice! We are sailing a 35 with hank-ons and while it sometimes is a hassle to change sails, it always works. In the last year while sailing from Germany to the Caribbean, we met several people that experienced severe problems due to nonworking furlers.

Our boats are about from the same era meaning they have a large foresail and a small main. On our 35 we carry:

-a small storm jib, 7m².

-a strong wind jib No. II, 18m² or about 90%. With the main in the 2nd reef this works fine for going upwind till about 35kts.

-a standard jib No. I, 32m² or about 130%. Upwind, this sail is used for 12-20kts.

-a genoa that according to Dufour is "medium", but it is 49m² or 170%. This sail is used upwind in light winds till about 12kts. With the main, our 35 footer then carries 74m² and easily sails upwind in less than 10kts of wind as long as there is not too much swell.

-a booster which is something like a twin genoa made out of spinnaker nylon. At 98m² it is a perfect downwind sail for long distance sailing in lighter winds. Poled out, it works from about 160 deg. till dead downwind.

We have a parallel dual forestay, so we are able to hoist two foresails at the same time. This is nice for going downwind in heavier winds where we can vary foresail size a lot by hoisting either genoa and large jib or large and small jib. All in all, we can vary downwind sail area from 123m² till 7m² with a lot of different combinations.

For your boat, i think a 100 and a 85 doesn't make such a big difference. I would think about a 130 and a 85 but i don't know your boat in detail.

Maybe you want to think about a way to hoist the 130 and the drifter at the same time for a good downwind setup if you plan to head further west to the pacific.

[Cthoops]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

When we took off the first time with hank on headsails (allied seawind II) we carried a 135%, a 110% and a yankee cut 90%.

On our boat, for tradewind sailing, the 110% is the working sail. The yankee 90 does really well in winds over 25-30 knots however cannot be carried above a beam reach (constrained be sheeting angles).

Thanks, Sailmonkey. This is helpful.

[Cthoops]

Originally Posted by txg

Good choice! We are sailing a 35 with hank-ons and while it sometimes is a hassle to change sails, it always works. In the last year while sailing from Germany to the Caribbean, we met several people that experienced severe problems due to nonworking furlers.

Our boats are about from the same era meaning they have a large foresail and a small main. On our 35 we carry:

-a small storm jib, 7m².

-a strong wind jib No. II, 18m² or about 90%. With the main in the 2nd reef this works fine for going upwind till about 35kts.

-a standard jib No. I, 32m² or about 130%. Upwind, this sail is used for 12-20kts.

-a genoa that according to Dufour is "medium", but it is 49m² or 170%. This sail is used upwind in light winds till about 12kts. With the main, our 35 footer then carries 74m² and easily sails upwind in less than 10kts of wind as long as there is not too much swell.

-a booster which is something like a twin genoa made out of spinnaker nylon. At 98m² it is a perfect downwind sail for long distance sailing in lighter winds. Poled out, it works from about 160 deg. till dead downwind.

We have a parallel dual forestay, so we are able to hoist two foresails at the same time. This is nice for going downwind in heavier winds where we can vary foresail size a lot by hoisting either genoa and large jib or large and small jib. All in all, we can vary downwind sail area from 123m² till 7m² with a lot of different combinations.

For your boat, i think a 100 and a 85 doesn't make such a big difference. I would think about a 130 and a 85 but i don't know your boat in detail.

Maybe you want to think about a way to hoist the 130 and the drifter at the same time for a good downwind setup if you plan to head further west to the pacific.

Thanks for the great details on your set up! You raise a good point that a 100 vs. an 85 isn't that big of a difference. We were thinking a 100 or a 110, so maybe going with the 110 (especially given Sailmonkey's post above) would be better.

When we had our furler we used a 130 which seemed to overpower the boat at 20 knots. Last season we used a very old 115 hank on which was much better, which is why we weren't thinking of going bigger than a 110 for our working jib.

[TrentePieds]

The designer's sailplan is given here:

BRISTOL 29 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Probably no need to rethink it, as is borne out by txg and SailMonkey's replies. It is easy enuff to print out the plan and measure the areas of the various hdsls given.

I am absolutely with you on the question of hank-ons. Prudent seamanship will enable you to go forward safely and betimes to hand sail. Many people seem to confuse roller FURLING with roller REEFING. Sails never seem to set right when the are "reefed" by some window blind arrangement or other. Roller furling hdsls are tolerable - if you must - but mains? Why make you sailing life more complicated than it has to be?

TP

[Cheechako]

On a few boats I've had a heavy ish 115%, high cut (the clew about head height off the deck) and a pendent on the bottom to keep it off the deck. It works very well.
That is one of them on the boat in my avatar.

[roverhi]

I'd go with a 110 with reef points so you can cut down on at least one sail bag. The problem with hank on sails is storage and an even bigger problem the smaller the boat. Reacher/Drifter/Asym's are great reaching sails but don't point worth a damn. You will be relegating yourself to a square rigged pointing ability. That's fine for trandewind sailing but you may not want to sail the sometimes thousands of miles out of your way that that pointing ability necessitates. Persoanlly would go with a 135% genoa with reef points. That will give you pointing ability in lighter winds, the ability to quickly redude sail area in flukey conditons and still be the right sail in most tradewind conditions.

Personally, wouldn't consider going with hank on sails in anything but a cutter/double headsail rig. With that rig you can sail in most conditions with only one extra sail bag. A loose footed staysail as large as you can fit with reef points, Yankee, and an overlapping genoa for lighter conditions. We did SoPac with such a setup. Only problem was the overlapping headsail was a reacher/drifter and it's pointing ability sucked. Would rather have given up it's reaching specialization for reasonable pointing ability.

Just out of curiosity, why did you get rid of your furler??? They go a long way to solving the sail storage problems and sure cut down on those trips to the foredeck which are not fun on a smaller boat.

[Dougtiff]

Look at having a reef in a 125 % [about] and a storm jib, along with a 1 3/4 oz. asymetrical spinnaker, no need to take up a lot of room in a small boat with sail's, where room ism a premium, the Pardeys used the reefing system on their boat.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I'd go with a 110 with reef points so you can cut down on at least one sail bag. The problem with hank on sails is storage and an even bigger problem the smaller the boat. Reacher/Drifter/Asym's are great reaching sails but don't point worth a damn. You will be relegating yourself to a square rigged pointing ability. That's fine for trandewind sailing but you may not want to sail the sometimes thousands of miles out of your way that that pointing ability necessitates. Persoanlly would go with a 135% genoa with reef points. That will give you pointing ability in lighter winds, the ability to quickly redude sail area in flukey conditons and still be the right sail in most tradewind conditions.

Personally, wouldn't consider going with hank on sails in anything but a cutter/double headsail rig. With that rig you can sail in most conditions with only one extra sail bag. A loose footed staysail as large as you can fit with reef points, Yankee, and an overlapping genoa for lighter conditions. We did SoPac with such a setup. Only problem was the overlapping headsail was a reacher/drifter and it's pointing ability sucked. Would rather have given up it's reaching specialization for reasonable pointing ability.

Just out of curiosity, why did you get rid of your furler??? They go a long way to solving the sail storage problems and sure cut down on those trips to the foredeck which are not fun on a smaller boat.

So Rover.... I tried a reefing headsail once and didn't like it at all.
-With a tack point in the luff it was a bit ungainly . Does yours just have a cringle there or a wire and fitting?
-The sail shape was terrible with all the needed things like reefing cringles. tack reinforcement and an additional clew cringle and reinforcing.
-How do you deal with the excess rolled up sail hanging out at the clew? The sheets chafe on that etc...

[donradcliffe]

That's why we called our roller reefing headsail 'the miracle' when we first used it.

[roverhi]

A reefing headsail is a compromise but not that big a compromise. Never really used the reefable staysail other than to be sure it would work. Fortunately the strongest winds we saw in more than 10,000 miles was in the 30k range. It's been some decades since I gave up on hanked on sails and the need to reef them. From my hazy memory, the staysail set fine reefed. No different than a loose footed mainsail. Gathering up the bunting wasn't fun but just used bunting lines on the sail to tie it up. The sail had a rope luff and pulled the luff down changed the snap shackle to the reef cringle and retensioned the luff. I used a seperate sheet for the reef point so as not to have the clew flailing wildly trying to move the sheet from one cringle to the other. The staysail was probably close to the same size as a 110% on the op's boat. Only reason I suggested a reef point on the 135% was to save a sail change in flukey conditions. The idea is not to use the sail reefed 24/7 on a typical passage run but to have the possiblilty to do it. Way easier to deal with the bunting on a 110%.

The OP doesn't want to hear it but have a roller furling 135% with foam luff on current boat. Has worked fine in winds to 40k and so easy to just roll the sail in and out as conditions require. Have an Asym with a sock for light reaching conditons but have have used it very little. Tried it on the sail to Hawaii but it wouldn't stay filled on a close reach collapsing and then filling with a mast shivering boom. Took it down, rolled out the genoa, and poled that out as winds moved aft. Way easier to deal with. Am truly disappointed in the Asym for other than broad reaching conditions. It's not anywhere as close winded as I had hoped for.

[barnakiel]

Going much below 100% is pointless if you do not have an internal (2nd) set off well aft and down from your No1. Such sails pretty soon become 1 trick ponies.

Other than this 'warning' the number of sails will depend on how many sails you are willing to carry as well as on how often you will have stamina to swap them. This is why people invented whatever is 'not going to happen'. Limited storage below. In a Bristol 29.

Given one stay only, I would carry only two jibs: The light one (zero sail) and the mid-weight one. Make the mid-weight sail with a reef and you are set.

Given two stays and a more sporty attitude onboard, I could carry, e.g.:

- big zero,
- size 1 genoa, low cut, reef'able,
- size 2 jib, high cut, reef'able,
- a blade,
- a storm sail.

Possibly about 150 / 110 / 90 / 90 / 25.

You have plenty of good options but you will be limited in how to use them, unless you have an offset 2nd stay.

Cheers,
b.

[KiwiKen]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

Getting a furler is not going to happen, so please don't try to convince us to do so.

Thanks.

My sentiments exactly, furlers are great if one doesn't want to be involved in sail changing, but a furler is a compromise.
Headsail material weight in part depends on the wind strengths the sail is to be used in, and certainly the best material for a light weather genoa to work most efficiently, is not going to stand up to stronger winds.
As a consequence a furling headsail will not perform as well in the light as a purpose built sail.
Secondly, as the sail is furled, the entry at the luff is nowhere as clean, thus creating turbulent flow, and therefore is less efficient.
For racing we used a forestay with a twin foil, which is efficient, avoiding being bare headed during a sail change, but it does require more than a skeleton crew to do such sail changes quickly.

There is certain nothing wrong with sails clipped to the fore stay with piston hanks, they are reliable, strong and fairly fail safe.

[Cthoops]

Thanks for the opinions. Based on some of the comments and some additional research, we decided to go with a 110 and an 85. Now to decide whether to get full battens on the mainsail - but that's probably for another thread!

Thanks again.