Mainsheet block ratios.

[Ambler]

G'Day Matt, my end boom sheet was 2 : 1 then the sheet went forward to the mast along the boom then redirected down to the deck then back to a winch on the cabin top, under the dodger. This sheeting arrangement was very effective except for one thing, cause and effect, I couldn't see the mainsail as I adjusted the sheet.

So I changed it to a 6:1 using 2 triple blocks, one with a cleat so I could see the main as I trimmed it from the aft end of the cockpit. 6:1 is a lot of sheet to take in when gybing but after all Ambler is a cruising boat these days.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by GILow

I’ve had a quick look at the German Mainsheet system.

I may be missing something but it doesn’t really feel right for a short handed cruising boat. All the descriptions I’ve read of the tacking technique make it sound a little too complex.

I think it does a good job also when sailing short/single handed. In my case (I believe in line with what is generally referred to as the German Mainsheet system) the main sheet is led through a single block on the traveller and then both ends go up towards the boom (as one would expect!) and forward along the boom towards the mast. There the two ends go their own way under an angle of 45 deg down to the deck on both sides passing through blocks very near to the shrouds (thereby avoiding conflict with the Genoa). From there back to two winches either side and a bit aft of the traveller, more or less (via one or two more blocks further back depending on the desired entry point into the winches).

So the main can be controlled by either winch in close proximity to the traveller controls. And my AP control is next to the wheel, again in close proximity to the main controls which makes gybing, even under more stressful conditions, a well controlled task also when single handing.

Finally, if one of the mainsheet winches is needed for something else then the sheet can be clamped in a fixed block on the deck just outboard of that winch.

I find it a well thought out concept and would not be keen on having the mainsheet go back to eg the cabin roof as this would indeed make single handing manoeuvres less easy to manage. And this system is the only system which allows 2:1 purchase in combination with a traveller. If no traveller then 2:1 is also trivial but... the traveller is kind of important.

[marcjsmith]

Originally Posted by GILow

I figure a similar sized boat with end boom sheeting led to a winch would be a good reference.

Matt

Matt


My moody 376 E 14.1 P 41 so slightly smaller sail area


has end boom sheeting and it came with a 4:1 to a centering block then to a non self tailing winch and cleat. I changed to ratchet block with a cam cleat. anything over 15 knots apparent its a real struggle to pull in and trim.


last month I purchased a 6:1 with a cam cleat have not had the chance to use it though as winter has settled in.

Id try to find a 4 or 5:1 to borrow and try it out and see what sit like before you ditch the 7:1 Yeah its a lot of line to have to deal with...which is one aspect of the 6:1 I'm not going to enjoy.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Ambler

G'Day Matt, my end boom sheet was 2 : 1 then the sheet went forward to the mast along the boom then redirected down to the deck then back to a winch on the cabin top, under the dodger. This sheeting arrangement was very effective except for one thing, cause and effect, I couldn't see the mainsail as I adjusted the sheet.

So I changed it to a 6:1 using 2 triple blocks, one with a cleat so I could see the main as I trimmed it from the aft end of the cockpit. 6:1 is a lot of sheet to take in when gybing but after all Ambler is a cruising boat these days.

I hear you on the problem of seeing the main while you are trimming. Same issue, to some degree, on Manera. I’ve got used to sticking my head out from under the bimini a lot. It will be worse on KP, but the cockpit is just too big to be clomping around, aft of the wheel, to trim.

I can’t even do the trick of a clear panel on the bimini as it will be covered in solar panels.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

And this system is the only system which allows 2:1 purchase in combination with a traveller.

Why on earth do you think that?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by marcjsmith

Matt


My moody 376 E 14.1 P 41 so slightly smaller sail area


has end boom sheeting and it came with a 4:1 to a centering block then to a non self tailing winch and cleat. I changed to ratchet block with a cam cleat. anything over 15 knots apparent its a real struggle to pull in and trim.


last month I purchased a 6:1 with a cam cleat have not had the chance to use it though as winter has settled in.

Id try to find a 4 or 5:1 to borrow and try it out and see what sit like before you ditch the 7:1 Yeah its a lot of line to have to deal with...which is one aspect of the 6:1 I'm not going to enjoy.

I currently sail with a 5:1 and no winch on the 42 footer, no problems at all, in any conditions. I’d be able to manage it on the 44 footer too, I think.

But adding a winch really changes the whole picture for me.

[fourlyons]

I sheet a 490 sqft main, attached 15 feet from the mast, with a 3:1 purchase easily by hand up to about 12 knots true. I then shift to a 2 speed winch. I do have to push the sail out, but only in really light winds, 5 or less apparent. I have found this to be a good compromise on sheet length, speed of adjustment, and effort/power.

[JPA Cate]

About cockpit spaghetti, (the tail of the long mainsheet), it seems to me that rope bags are the solution to that problem. Easy and relatively inexpensive to make and install (ours are hung from the pad eyes on the rails from the gate to the stern). A more elegant solution would be to open a door in the coaming, using a piano hinge on the bottom, and a flat latch, where you shove it in and close the door. The door would have a scallop in the lid for the bit of line closest to the winch.

Matt, did you ever go aboard Volo? they have roughly 8 lines per side, all going through a battery of sheet stoppers, then into an openable coaming section, All lines are run under deck or in channels under the cabin top, so there is minimal clutter. Flake line, stow, close lid. Very tidy. If you like, I can take a pic next time we see them.

Ann

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by GILow

I never said I was going mid boom sheeting.

Did not imply in any way that you would or should have mid boom sheeting.

The post was included to illustrate why I think mid boom sheeting and loose footed mains are a bad combination, it was informative not critical in nature..

[Jim Cate]

^^^^

Ray, it has been years since I had a non-loosefooted mainsail, but I don't remember that the slugs along the foot ever did much to distribute the sail loads along the boom. IE, the clew still presented the big loads to the boom.

Is my memory faulty? Wouldn't be the first time!

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by GILow

I’ve had a quick look at the German Mainsheet system.

I may be missing something but it doesn’t really feel right for a short handed cruising boat. All the descriptions I’ve read of the tacking technique make it sound a little too complex.

The German system is perfectly acceptable for short handed sailing. It is essentially a a 2:1 purchase double ended main sheet with a winch on both ends. You can use either end to sheet in or ease out the main. The two winches are usually located in the cockpit or close to the helm.

We have a double ended mainsheet with a winch on each end but is not a German system. The main sheet goes from a winch on one end of traveler to blocks in the middle, up to the boom and back down and out to the other side. With either of our large mainsheet winches is easy and fast to crank the main in and with a 2:1 purchase there is little friction. The advantage of the German system is that there is even less friction; the traveller can be moved without the mainsheet moving through any blocks.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by GILow

Why on earth do you think that?

I didn't think it was easy to combine the winches with a 2:1 purchase and a traveller. Ie. lower block can move along the traveller while winches remain fixed.

But Wingssail says it's possible so I stand corrected. But, but... that must take some doing getting/trimming the traveller block to windward on a close haul in a hefty blow, quite a bit of friction to overcome. So I rephrase: the German system is the only 2:1 system which doesn't require a lot of muscle power? But what do I know, apart from the main point I was trying to make: German system is absolutely fine for single handers.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^

Ray, it has been years since I had a non-loosefooted mainsail, but I don't remember that the slugs along the foot ever did much to distribute the sail loads along the boom. IE, the clew still presented the big loads to the boom.

Is my memory faulty? Wouldn't be the first time!

Jim

Someone put them on there to do something Jim.

I suspect that in normal operation the outhaul keeps the foot tight and the slugs are loose but with the shock of sail being pulled up short in a crash jibe the slugs keep the foot from bellying and creating high compressive loading on the boom.

[El Pinguino]

I have a two fold purchase rigged to advantage as shown - which has the benefit of letting me set it up 'runner and guy' at anchor or alongside. Goes to a turning block to port and then I have a choice of two winches on the port cockpit coaming, one aft of the wheel , one abreast - second pic.
Works good.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

About cockpit spaghetti, (the tail of the long mainsheet), it seems to me that rope bags are the solution to that problem. Easy and relatively inexpensive to make and install (ours are hung from the pad eyes on the rails from the gate to the stern). A more elegant solution would be to open a door in the coaming, using a piano hinge on the bottom, and a flat latch, where you shove it in and close the door. The door would have a scallop in the lid for the bit of line closest to the winch.

Matt, did you ever go aboard Volo? they have roughly 8 lines per side, all going through a battery of sheet stoppers, then into an openable coaming section, All lines are run under deck or in channels under the cabin top, so there is minimal clutter. Flake line, stow, close lid. Very tidy. If you like, I can take a pic next time we see them.

Ann

Yes, I saw the Volo system. Very impressive.

I think two rope bags on the back of the cabin trunk will be adequate for KP. There are large pockets in the cockpit coaming that can handle the jib and staysail sheets plus the two foresail furling lines, all that will remain is the mainsheet and the outhaul for the main. The furling line for the main is a continuous loop which helps.