Mast vs Cabintop Halyard Winch

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

OK thanks. A couple of notes on this:
1. I'll need a longer attachment for block, to get the aft-returning line up to the level of the cabintop? "C"

Yes. And...?

2. The padeye deck attachment looks like it will have to be forward of the mast exit slot, so the winch doesn't pull the line sideways so it saws against the slot edge?

Well, yes, but it doesn't have to be exact. It can veer a little.

3. It's a stepped mast with an encapsulated beam under, visible in the cabin "A". I don't know what the beam inside the fibreglass encapsulation is made from...wood?? The fibreglass deck up around the mast area is thin. I suspect the padeye will just tear out, even with my 50mm sq x 2.0mm plate washers under. So fixing into the beam would be an advantage. But how to fix: if wood, then long 8 guage wood screws..but if other then I may need to through-bolt with threaded rod with nuts each end? Depending on the location of the padeye I may have to employ both methods if it falls half-on and half-off the beam.

Alternatively, avoid all that and use a pivoting sheave riveted to the mast?

A couple facts to consider. This is a halyard which has modest loads and which is not subject to significant shock loading as would be the case with e.g. a mainsheet in a crash gybe. It has to be strong enough but that's hundreds of pounds not thousands of pounds.


You can drill a small hole into the deck to evaluate the construction and whether the beam is hollow, or sound wood, or rotten wood, or solid glass, or aluminum, or whatever.


You can bond a piece of fiberglass sheet (G10 etc) to the deck, to provide an anchor point. It need not be a large piece.


You can use a diamond padeye (or circle or etc) that is larger than what you need, to distribute the load.



Pivoting halyard blocks work, too.

[JSSailem]

Agrippa, I am coming late to the party. I solo sail. I find having all my halyards at the mast simplifies my life.

My exit boxes are above my head and arm reach for Jib and Main. This allows me to use my body weight not just my arms to hoist the sail. I raise the sails to within less than a meter of the mast head manually. I have manual winches on both sides of the mast (Barient ST 17) that I use to finish the raise and tension on the sail luffs. The key is to be sure you minimize the friction on the mainsail sail lugs. They need to be secure on the sail luff and slide smoothly on the mast track. MackLube is a dry lubrication that works well for me.

Without the halyards running across the deck to the cockpit, I eliminate a tripping hazard on the cabin top where I stand to handle the sail on the boom. Lazyjacks for the main sail help to capture the sail when it is dropped.

There is a thought that working at the mast is dangerous and safety is found in the cockpit. I believe that a sailor needs to be able to move about his boat as needed. I use jacklines, tethers and harness when in open water to help keep me on the boat. Moving to the mast helps me know that the bow and mast are ready to sail into dangerous waters. Reefing early helps to minimize my exposure to risk. I feel that by moving about the boat in all types of conditions has helped to condition my experiences when they are really needed.

Not a sailing philosophy for all but perhaps will help you in making your decision about the halyards.

[Ratty1978]

Have done it for racing, so the bow person could hand the halyard when working with the spinnaker. Internal halyards are a good thing for better aerodynamics and less clanking against the mast in the harbor. The mast extrusion was a bendable aluminum, but plenty thick. Exit height a bit above your head so you can hoist. Calculate the size of the exit, get a stainless exit plate, cut the hole with plenty large, round, drills at the corners (sharp corners cause stress risers), smooth, pull the halyard through. Extrusion was thick enough to drill and tap mounting bolts, but rivets for the exit plate could work. I put a cam cleat, for temporary use, out of line with the lead to the turning block now external at the mast base. Hoist a bit by hand, cleat, use your hands for something else, uncleat, etc. I could easily imagine a need for fiddling with slugs on a main. When done at the mast, rely on the turning block and cabin top winch to a clutch and pull out of the temporary use cam cleat. This adds the ability to work at the mast and keep the ability to trim or winch from the cockpit. The new external mast base block solves your line lead concern. Best of both.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

I'm reassessing running rigging on an old 26 IF.

The halyard run is awful...the line comes down in-mast, out an exit-block at the base, then pulled 45deg aft (sawing against the metal exit-block wheel edge), then back to a turning block at the mast base, No.8 at cabintop.

I'm replacing the No.8 and it seems much simpler to me to put the new one plus a clutch on the mast. I'm single-handed so am up there flaking when dropping anyway. To do this I'd need to get the line out of the mast however. I have no experience with "halyard exits" (they look like they chafe), or in-line/bullet blocks (is this what they are for?), or...am doing the wrong thing and I should be looking at some way of having the halyward external to the mast to avoid all this? Which presumably means redoing the mast-head in some way.

Thanks, P

[Ratty1978]

To attach the turning block, it's best if it is strongly attached to the mast base, assuming there's a casting on deck which gives your the exit blocks. For mine, I took a chunk of aluminum, maybe 3/4" thick and cut to replace the block. fitting the same space (sheave removed) and sticking out. As backup, forged eyebolts, bolting the casting to the deck (and an overbuilt compression post arrangement) worked. If you can pull the mast (here in Chicago, winter is great because you unstep the mast every year which lets you inspect and tweak the structure!) there are made to mount plates to go underneath the deck fitting and add places for the turning blocks. Better to have all the load top to bottom "on" the mast assembly, not adding load to the deck. You'll have shrouds and stays with a "down" load and adding a halyard to an eye with a concentrated "up" load doesn't sound ideal.



O

Originally Posted by Agrippa

I'm reassessing running rigging on an old 26 IF.

The halyard run is awful...the line comes down in-mast, out an exit-block at the base, then pulled 45deg aft (sawing against the metal exit-block wheel edge), then back to a No.8 at cabintop.

I'm replacing the No.8 and it seems much simpler to me to put the new one plus a clutch on the mast. I'm single-handed so am up there flaking when dropping anyway. To do this I'd need to get the line out of the mast however. I have no experience with "halyard exits" (they look like they chafe), or in-line/bullet blocks (is this what they are for?), or...am doing the wrong thing and I should be looking at some way of having the halyward external to the mast to avoid all this? Which presumably means redoing the mast-head in some way.

Thanks, P

Originally Posted by Jammer

Yes. And...?





Well, yes, but it doesn't have to be exact. It can veer a little.





A couple facts to consider. This is a halyard which has modest loads and which is not subject to significant shock loading as would be the case with e.g. a mainsheet in a crash gybe. It has to be strong enough but that's hundreds of pounds not thousands of pounds.


You can drill a small hole into the deck to evaluate the construction and whether the beam is hollow, or sound wood, or rotten wood, or solid glass, or aluminum, or whatever.


You can bond a piece of fiberglass sheet (G10 etc) to the deck, to provide an anchor point. It need not be a large piece.


You can use a diamond padeye (or circle or etc) that is larger than what you need, to distribute the load.



Pivoting halyard blocks work, too.

[smacksman]

On a small main why not do away with winches. Have the gooseneck sliding in the track. Have a 4:1 tackle hauling down the gooseneck to tension the luff. Halyard goes to a cleat on the mast or lead aft if you want to complicate things.

[Ratty1978]

I like oscillating saws better than "jigsaws". You can saw but also sand and scrape. Since it's capable of "plunge" sawing, if you're careful you can avoid the internal halyards. Fein Multimaster, 110 volt AC, practically indestructible. Ryobi battery powered has a clever blade connect/disconnect.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

What's the best way to cut in a halyard exit, as an alternative. Four corner holes, then a jig saw?

[FoxIslander]

Personally I find the whole "lines led to cockpit" thing over-rated. I'd rather have halyards on the mast...much less friction and easier to watch going up.

[El Pinguino]

My previous boat was a 25' Vertue, everything at the mast except the mainsheet.

I agree with those that say fit a winch at the mast.

Treat yourself to a self tailer - you know you deserve one.

[OneBoatman]

Very common to have internal halyards with std exit plates leading directly to a winch and cleat for botht the main and jib, each mounted on the mast. If a line is chafing on a block it either has an improper lead or the line is too big for the block or both. It is perfectly fine to downsize the line and use a higher strength line but if the layout is poor enough bad enough the foot block and deck organizer should be adressed if you plan on leading your halyard aft to cabin top winch. I suggest setting up single line jiffy reefing and perhaps a second line for double reefing as this makes things much easier when sailing short handed. For boats under 30 ft a halyard inch around 12 should do the job. Be sure to put a seat belt or fasten a bag that caturs your halyards near the base of the mast as they can quite easily get miserably entangled and foul your jib sheets when in high winds.