Masthead rig - Back stay flicker

[alaskanviking]

I have the mast down for some work and paint. I have been looking at adding a full roach main sail, and other rigging upgrades. Passport 42/Slocum 43 Cutter rig. Heavy mast that doesn't have a backstay adjuster. Will be replacing the back stay with a dynice dux synthetic backstay

Looking at adding a backstay flicker/ backstay whip at the masthead to pull up the backstay during light winds. Most of the posts and material I found on this are older and specifically reference a fractional rig. I don't see any reason you can't use one with a masthead rig.

Is a flicker/whip worth the time to keep thinking about? I'd have to make some kind of cascade or add an adjuster to this setup

[Rucksta]

On a double spreader inline masthead rig the forestay tension is controlled primarily by the backstay.

Some additional minor forestay tension can be achieved from the mainsail leech

If you ease the backstay to allow the flicker to work you loose forestay tension.

On a fractional rig the forestay tension is controlled by the running back stays.
On high performance boats the running back tackle is engineered to support loads in excess of the boat's displacement.
The backstay (if present) controls the tip to adjust leech tension in the upper third of the main.

Swept spreaders and or double masthead running backstays would stabilise the forestay.
Note that the compression loads on the mast increase with swept spreaders.

An extended mast crane may also allow for a square top but the structure and weight aloft may be a bigger penalty than the gains of a square top.

Hope you find a solution that works for you.

[alaskanviking]

Since your only slacking the backstay when you tack to help the main cross, the jib is still crossing to the other side and doesn't have load or shape yet. So I'm thinking that the momentary slacking of the forestay wouldn't really impact performance much.

Am I missing something. I have seen similar elsewhere but it's not fully adding up in my mind. Trying to understand and hoping I don't have to experiment just to find out I was really wrong somewhere

[PippaB]

Think about the dynamics of your tack. You have to unload the headstay first so you don’t pull the mast down with a loaded jib. Then start your turn (jib flapping around), then unload backstay (jib flapping around), then pass the main over (jib flapping), then tension the backstay (jib still flapping), now finally you can sheet home the jib. That’s lots of wear-and-tear on the jib. And forget even once (or have unfamiliar crew on the boat) and sheet home the jib before the backstay is re-tensioned....

[zstine]

So if I understand your proposal, you want to add a large roach main that will not safely tack inside a standard backstay, so you want to add a mast head running backstay to allow the main to tack without hitting the backstay. Then you want to add a flicker to the running back to lift it over the roach in a tack/gybe... You have a passport 42, double ender.


NO this will not work! You have no means on your boat to hold the mast from moving forward when you release the running backstay and the flicker will not 'lift' the backstay under even moderate tension. You need either have swept spreaders or port/starboard runners... This is not recommended on a double ender cruising boat. This is a racing set-up that requires additional crew, not to mention a huge amountof structural changes to move your chain plates, add bulkheads, etc. And You will not be able to tack/gybe solo.


Additionally, adding a large roach main will change the balance of your boat adding significant weather helm as it moves the center of effort aft. A large roach main will likely hamper upwind performance, though maybe provide added downwind area/power.... You would be far better off adding a spinnaker for down wind performance. A spinnaker will also stabilize roll and make it more comfortable downwind, where a bigger main does little to stabilize the boat.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Since your only slacking the backstay when you tack to help the main cross..."

Eh? On this boat the main doesn't need any help. There is plenty of room for it to gybe inside the backstay! Just keep your roach moderate enuff that the topmost batten doesn't hang up. For cruising in a boat like this you don't need a whole bunch of roach!

TrentePieds

[psk125]

As 30', zstine and you yourself suggest, this idea is really wrong. Your initial post states that the existing - "heavy" mast does not even have an adjustable backstay. If you make the backstay adjustable will it actually be able to bend your existing mast? Or will tightening it simply serve to drive the foot of the mast through the mast step? Adding a big-roach main? Why? Are you planning to race this elephant around the buoys? Such a sail will cost thousands of dollars and create problems with the backstay that could result in you losing the rig, as you ease things off and the mast whips around and you try to get the sail past the stay. Are you sailing with a crew of six who can deal with all the strings you will be setting up, and which will need adjusting every time you tack? Your boat was built almost 40 years ago and has a reputation as a solid cruiser with pleasant sailing characteristics. Messing with the sails and rig - on the fly, without professional input - is not likely to improve anything. As others have suggested, increasing sail area by adding a spinnaker - even a cruising asymmetrical - would be a better option. It would be cheaper, simpler, quicker and more effective than the quagmire you are contemplating.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by PippaB

Think about the dynamics of your tack. You have to unload the headstay first so you don’t pull the mast down with a loaded jib. Then start your turn (jib flapping around), then unload backstay (jib flapping around), then pass the main over (jib flapping), then tension the backstay (jib still flapping), now finally you can sheet home the jib. That’s lots of wear-and-tear on the jib. And forget even once (or have unfamiliar crew on the boat) and sheet home the jib before the backstay is re-tensioned....

Thanks everyone, this helped a lot. It would over complicate things.

Unfortunately "experts" are really only "experts" at sloops, and production boats. I needed a sounding board (this forum) to determine if it was worth my thought to proceed to a rigger. Not worth money and time for a thought that won't work.

The mast is down, so I'm trying to think of any potential additions now, while it's easy, before it's painted.

[Bowdrie]

As others have posted, don't try to re-invent the wheel, you're not going to change a Chevy Suburban into a F1 car.
Your boat came from a well respected designer who knew what he was about.
All this square-headed mainsail, bendy-rig, backstay lifting, multiple control wires/lines stuff is 'round-the-course racing clap-trap, that has zero application on a cruiser for safe/secure ocean work.
Remember, those who relish all that stuff would generally find it much fun to stand in a freezing shower whilst tearing-up bags of $100 bills.
Yes, the last sentence was sarcasm,, but not by much.

[Rucksta]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Remember, those who relish all that stuff would generally find it much fun to stand in a freezing shower whilst tearing-up bags of $100 bills.
Yes, the last sentence was sarcasm,, but not by much.

Tearing up hundreds is wishful thinking, try thousands. B.O.A.T.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Rucksta

Tearing up hundreds is wishful thinking, try thousands. B.O.A.T.

When I shower, I write out $10,000 checks and rip them with my teeth into little pieces.

[zstine]

if your looking for work on the mast whilst down, there's plenty to do. remove, inspect, lubricate all sheaves. this is the time to upgrade the masthead light to an LED and add/upgrade deck lighting with LED. inspect wiring connections, disconnect, dielectric grease, reconnect. maybe a new VHF antenna or wind instruments are in order? do you want to add a WiFi extender, AIS, radar or other equipment? inspect all rigging connections. inspect spreader tip and root connections and replace anti-chafe protection. inspect all fasteners holding everything on... is there corrosion at the base of the mast? if yes,, cut off an inch and raise the step an equal amount... etc...