Minimum distance between Furling genau and jib for close haul on a 39ft ketch

[CaptainRivet]

Hi all,

What is the minimum distance between a furling Genua and jib, so I can use them both at the same time in close haul sailing and gain a bit more height.
I know the answer I get is as much as possible but what is minimum?
Boat is a 12m ketch with 13t, Mast Height is 12m from deck, Genua is 135% with 42sqm and former owner put the fitting and the cable for the jib 50cm apart from the Genua (at approx 11m on top of the mast). He never used it.
Situation is, there is only the fittings and a Steel cable with spanner, no sail.
I want to buy a furling jib and also need to have the jib made (have non so I could try).
I have the possibility
A) using existing fitting and adapt cable for furler so it is 50cm apart which would give me a 95% jib with approx 26sqm. What I was looking for but is it enough to be used at the same time in close haul?
B) change fitting on deck but it’s looks it’s only possible (Anker whinch is in the way) with a minimum of 110cm apart but that leaves me with a 19sqm Jib, so roughly 80% jib which is too small for what I want and need. Sure with this setup close haul is for sure possible using both.
C) if a) is too less distance what is the minimum so it definitely works to use Genua and jib at the same time in close haul? Means I need minimum distance to get an as big jib as possible.

Have no jib sail to try it out and 3 sailmakers i asked told me as much as possible but don’t want to give me a minimum distance for my boat or make a statement if my 50cm are ok.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hi all,

What is the minimum distance between a furling Genua and jib, so I can use them both at the same time in close haul sailing and gain a bit more height.
I know the answer I get is as much as possible but what is minimum?
Boat is a 12m ketch with 13t, Mast Height is 12m from deck, Genua is 135% with 42sqm and former owner put the fitting and the cable for the jib 50cm apart from the Genua (at approx 11m on top of the mast). He never used it.
Situation is, there is only the fittings and a Steel cable with spanner, no sail.
I want to buy a furling jib and also need to have the jib made (have non so I could try).
I have the possibility
A) using existing fitting and adapt cable for furler so it is 50cm apart which would give me a 95% jib with approx 26sqm. What I was looking for but is it enough to be used at the same time in close haul?
B) change fitting on deck but it’s looks it’s only possible (Anker whinch is in the way) with a minimum of 110cm apart but that leaves me with a 19sqm Jib, so roughly 80% jib which is too small for what I want and need. Sure with this setup close haul is for sure possible using both.
C) if a) is too less distance what is the minimum so it definitely works to use Genua and jib at the same time in close haul? Means I need minimum distance to get an as big jib as possible.

Have no jib sail to try it out and 3 sailmakers i asked told me as much as possible but don’t want to give me a minimum distance for my boat or make a statement if my 50cm are ok.

In my view the double headed rig you describe will give some advantages on a reach, but not much on close hauled. If you can get your genoa flat and sheeted tight that is as good as you can do. You won't improve your windward performance with a jib set inside of it. So spend your money on a better genoa if you need to.

For reaching the 50cm is a pretty tiny gap but it can work on a beam reach, the 110cm is a bit better, it then begins to act like a staysail. If you are not trying to sheet the jib all the way in it can be bigger and have some overlap of the rig. I think the size limitation you mention is because you want the jib close hauled inside the foretriangle and not overlapping the shrouds.

I think you will be disappointed in the lack of improvement taking that approach.

Your best windward performance will be a big, nicely shaped genoa sheeted hard and the sheeting point set for the best shape. A good mainsail with some roach and trimmed flat but with the traveler a little down below midpoint, and big mizzen, also sheeted properly with the traveler down. When these three sails are working as well as they can, you then experiment with fine trim and how high you can sail before the boat really slows down. When you find your best VMG, that's it. Adding a jib for upwind work won't help much, if at all. Keep the bottom clean and have a folding propeller.

And here is an idea: Keep the inner stay at 50cm and put a roller furling 100% jib on it. This will give you less area for windier days: you roll up the genoa and roll out the jib. It makes tacking the genoa harder but it gives you a lot of options and you can use both when reaching.

[Nicholson58]

We have such a rig. The greater the distance between the two luffs, the higher into the wind it might be useful. The luffs need to be nearly parallel. Both sails need to be pretty flat. For apparent wind up to 15 we can carry both 130 Genoa and 2/3 hoist staysail to our advantage to windward or close reaching. Above 15 we must douse the Genoa. Lots of geometry here and the beam as well as track location matters. Our slot space is huge. I suggest you bring a sailmaker and possibly a rigger aboard.

[barnakiel]

If the two fore sails are the only sails, the bigger distance the better angle (in theory at least).


But as you move the inner sail back, you are making it smaller, hence you lose the drive, hence you are getting worse angle ...


So I would believe the best distance to be between 50% and 25% from the outer jib. (Perhaps 50% for two top jibs, but 25% for two parallel ones?).



However, if there is a main involved, it is theoretically best to drop one jib. I believe the middle one (the smaller, inner sail).


b.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In my view the double headed rig you describe will give some advantages on a reach, but not much on close hauled. If you can get your genoa flat and sheeted tight that is as good as you can do. You won't improve your windward performance with a jib set inside of it. So spend your money on a better genoa if you need to.

For reaching the 50cm is a pretty tiny gap but it can work on a beam reach, the 110cm is a bit better, it then begins to act like a staysail. If you are not trying to sheet the jib all the way in it can be bigger and have some overlap of the rig. I think the size limitation you mention is because you want the jib close hauled inside the foretriangle and not overlapping the shrouds.

I think you will be disappointed in the lack of improvement taking that approach.

Your best windward performance will be a big, nicely shaped genoa sheeted hard and the sheeting point set for the best shape. A good mainsail with some roach and trimmed flat but with the traveler a little down below midpoint, and big mizzen, also sheeted properly with the traveler down. When these three sails are working as well as they can, you then experiment with fine trim and how high you can sail before the boat really slows down. When you find your best VMG, that's it. Adding a jib for upwind work won't help much, if at all. Keep the bottom clean and have a folding propeller.

And here is an idea: Keep the inner stay at 50cm and put a roller furling 100% jib on it. This will give you less area for windier days: you roll up the genoa and roll out the jib. It makes tacking the genoa harder but it gives you a lot of options and you can use both when reaching.

Hi,
Thanks for your points. Boat will be setup for a circum barefoot root.
The 2 foresails, a 95 or 100% jib and the 135 genua will be Setup as Prio
1: for all point of sails the genua runs full out till 17/18kn, till around 22 rolled up 20%. Above that genua in and jib full out as better profile till roughly 30kn then jib reefed down. Main/Mizzen accordingly reefed 1-3.
Prio 2: the 2 foresail will be accompanied by a 3rd one, a modified furled Code0 on a bowsprit again approx 50-80cm upfront genua furler. Code 0 With approx 80sqm is out of heavy 130g spinnaker cloth and foot cut high to be boomed out as downwind sail, cut only 2nd Prio as beam/broad reach light wind sail. This will also be permanently rigged as I have no space to store such a big sail. This will be made as soon as bowsprit is finished. With a 135% genua boomed out too in butterfly that’s gonna be the light downwind Setup and can be furled to reef with slightly more wind.
Genua and jib can still be used standard way to sail a higher course if needed, just code 0 furled away. A 2nd identical genua and a 2nd profile in the genua furler is backup downwind sail in case code0 has a problem.
Prio 3: genua and jib Boomed out in butterfly for stronger downwind, furled down as needed. Alternatively reefed main and jib. But ketch is already quite rolly with 145cm draft and round keel plus closed Pilothouse, so stay on foresails as long as I can to reduce that.
Prio 4: to help as much as possible for close haul and reach the jib will be rigged inside the front outer shroud and can be therefor get much closer then the 135 genua (Limits to get genua close). And as I understand I can fly genua and jib in parallel, with the jib getting some degrees higher to wind And here is exactly the dilemma, distance between genua and jib versus jib sail area. More the 70cm distance and Jib is too small for Prio 1...the ketch runs quite well on close reach but bad on closed haul, so any compromise in favor of close haul with the jib setup without ruining Prio 1 is welcomed.
So what to do with the jib and distance to genua?

All sails are 3 years old (2 x 135 genua, main,Mizzen) but pretty much in new condition as very rarely used...former owner preferred to motor...I have a 2nd 135 genua, new and just put up ones to see if it fits. All good Dacron sails by one sails, done right. So furled code 0 and jib will be added new.
Issue is that my ketch, a VILM2, has worst setup for a close haul: the shrouds on the main mast go one meter forward of the mast and are fitted on the very outside of the Reling. So getting the 135% genua tight is limited by this front shroud but the jib I could route inside of this shroud and getting it much closer. A round-keel and only 145cm draft doesn’t help either as drift is high too...so any help here by the jib is welcomed.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

We have such a rig. The greater the distance between the two luffs, the higher into the wind it might be useful. The luffs need to be nearly parallel. Both sails need to be pretty flat. For apparent wind up to 15 we can carry both 130 Genoa and 2/3 hoist staysail to our advantage to windward or close reaching. Above 15 we must douse the Genoa. Lots of geometry here and the beam as well as track location matters. Our slot space is huge. I suggest you bring a sailmaker and possibly a rigger aboard.

You have a lot sail area up well I would love to too but I don’t have the storage space for all these sails. Plus I wanna be able to fully run the boat single handed under all setups.
Yes that is the setup with 50% of distance between genua and mast, so it is pretty much a baby stay with a too small sail area for me, more like like a storm sail then a proper jib. Saw this too, or then the setup where genua and jib is very close, 20-30cm so there is just enough space for 2 genua on one furler as downwind sail and jib. Clear how this works and what it is setup for. I wanna go exactly in the middle of this 2 setups
So in theory 2/3 Distance would be optimal but there is exactly the Anker whinch located...

[Boatguy30]

Your original post suggests a solent stay setup where you would never use both sails upwind. Generally the Genoa is furled to tack. The width of the clew patch is a nice distance between the stays or wherever the attachment points work out on mast and deck to keep parallel.

The next boat in photos has a cutter rig, which is different than what you described and generally uses a higher cut Yankee headsail in combo with the staysail.

You need to find an experienced rigger/sailmaker or you're potentially going to waste a lot of money on all this

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

...Issue is that my ketch, a VILM2, has worst setup for a close haul: the shrouds on the main mast go one meter forward of the mast and are fitted on the very outside of the Reling. So getting the 135% genua tight is limited by this front shroud but the jib I could route inside of this shroud and getting it much closer. A round-keel and only 145cm draft doesn’t help either as drift is high too...so any help here by the jib is welcomed.

You have a dilemma with the location of your inner stay and the location of the shrouds.

But I stick by my recommendation that flying a jib inside of the genoa will not buy you much for windward work.

Given your priors, I guess I'd stick with the 50cm distance rather than cut down the jib to fit it farther back. At least this way you will have a good sized jib for those windy situations when you want to roll in the genoa.

It still might work Ok on reaches.

Just remember about your code zero: If you leave it up all the time it will suffer from UV and weather. Even if you cannot stow it below you can strike it and put it in a good bag and keep it on deck. Nice sails should be protected.

BTW, with a shallow draft keel you need to keep the boat upright, not heeled over. Please consider reducing sail area to reduce the heel. This will help your windward progress.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You have a dilemma with the location of your inner stay and the location of the shrouds.

But I stick by my recommendation that flying a jib inside of the genoa will not buy you much for windward work.

Given your priors, I guess I'd stick with the 50cm distance rather than cut down the jib to fit it farther back. At least this way you will have a good sized jib for those windy situations when you want to roll in the genoa.

It still might work Ok on reaches.

Just remember about your code zero: If you leave it up all the time it will suffer from UV and weather. Even if you cannot stow it below you can strike it and put it in a good bag and keep it on deck. Nice sails should be protected.

BTW, with a shallow draft keel you need to keep the boat upright, not heeled over. Please consider reducing sail area to reduce the heel. This will help your windward progress.

Thank you. To reduce heel that is what I hope to achieve too by adding a 95% jib which has a better sail profile the a furled down genua, so use this even earlier instead of genua. That works on all courses beside close haul so far. On close haul I have to life with a lot heel to get somehow forward or motor, maybe using jib can help here too.

Regarding code 0: that is again the dilemma, to keep it up furled in quickly comming squal with 40kn+ it need to be a profile and standard furler so you can furl it really tight and it’s not unfurling in the heavy winds. But this makes it impossible to get it down and in a bag on deck when at sea. You don’t want to deal with this massive sail on the foredeck at sea and if worst come to worst alone. For this to work you would need torsion line and endless furler setup but this you cannot furl tight so you are in a constant risk of unfurling and destroying it when I have no time getting it down on time. this is the issue with the blue water runner from Elvstrøm, know 3 boats where it unfurled in 30kn+ and destroyed the sail plus had massive problems. Elvstrøm said you can keep it up, well this proofs not really. Otherwise a good sail with the possibilities to use as reacher. That’s how I came to my code0 setup, as this can be made with profile and standard furler, the BWR not.
So I have to life with a shorter lifespan, maybe I can find a cover that protects it more then the UV strip when it’s up. Well compromise as always on a sailing vessel