Motorsailer - battens or not?

[Wckoek]

Hello, I understand that battens are there to help sails to maintain efficient shape, but without battens would prolong the lifespan of sails.
For a 60/40 motorsailer that is doing long distance offshore, would it make better sense to go battenless since I would run motor alot?
How much difference between the two when it comes to ease of use?

[Sailmonkey]

For a motorsailor that I’m betting you’ll not sail to weather, go battenless. The sails are just so much easier to handle.

Just my humble thoughts

[robert sailor]

I agree with the Monkey..Don't bother with batten main sail.. the little bit of performance you'd add to a motorsailer would not be worth the aggravation. As he also suggests you'll never be sailing to windward in your motorsailer anyways and thats where most of the gain would be..good advice, plus its a lot cheaper.

[puffcard]

Most motorsailers have roller furlers mains. If in mast, you can't have battens. My opinion, if the nicer in boom, you can and I would. Helps keep the leach from chattering, and sail from luffing when motorsailing into a breeze. This kills a sail and provides better shape. The sail helps steady the boat and does give you a boost.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by puffcard

Most motorsailers have roller furlers mains. If in mast, you can't have battens. My opinion, if the nicer in boom, you can and I would. Helps keep the leach from chattering, and sail from luffing when motorsailing into a breeze. This kills a sail and provides better shape. The sail helps steady the boat and does give you a boost.

If the main is cut properly you won't have to worry about the sail luffing/chattering as it must have a hollow leech. It's cut just like a jib and if he's motoring upwind at 40-50 degrees off the wind then yes the sail will give you a bit of power as well as really help steady the boat but if your motoring upwind at much less then 25-30 degrees apparent then it's not going to do much of anything to a heavy motor sailer. Roller furling sails can indeed have battens, there are different designs using different types of batten material but they are vertical, this allows the sail to made without the hollow leech but in my opinion it's not needed and adds to the cost and complexity.

[thinwater]

I think you need some responses from folks that use full batten sails.

• Full batten sails will not luff if motoring close to the wind in light conditions. This is a biggy for a motor sailor.
• Full batten sails drop on the boom with lazy jack so easy it disgusting.
• Full batten mains are less prone to snagging on the jacks IF THEY ARE PROPERLY DESIGNED. Instead of 4 legs, there should only be 2, and those should be far forward.
• The chafe thing is overstated. I have never retired a sail from chafe, only poor shape. Because they move less, they chafe less.
• They barely need secured when reefed. I've sailed in 35 knots sustained without reefing ties. I don't understand how roller furling is easier. The only difference is I have a cover. On the other hand, I have no risk of jamming.
• No flogging when reefing or hoisting.
• More sail area up high where it helps. More sail area overall.
• Last longer with good shape.

The only way battenless sails are better are:

• Lighter.
• Cheaper... but they are also smaller.
• You don't have to take the battens off to remove them... which I only do when I get a new sail.

The way I see it, full batten sails are spreading, except for in-mast furling.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I think you need some responses from folks that use full batten sails.

• Full batten sails will not luff if motoring close to the wind in light conditions. This is a biggy for a motor sailor.
• Full batten sails drop on the boom with lazy jack so easy it disgusting.
• Full batten mains are less prone to snagging on the jacks IF THEY ARE PROPERLY DESIGNED. Instead of 4 legs, there should only be 2, and those should be far forward.
• The chafe thing is overstated. I have never retired a sail from chafe, only poor shape. Because they move less, they chafe less.
• They barely need secured when reefed. I've sailed in 35 knots sustained without reefing ties. I don't understand how roller furling is easier. The only difference is I have a cover. On the other hand, I have no risk of jamming.
• No flogging when reefing or hoisting.
• More sail area up high where it helps. More sail area overall.
• Last longer with good shape.

The only way battenless sails are better are:

• Lighter.
• Cheaper... but they are also smaller.
• You don't have to take the battens off to remove them... which I only do when I get a new sail.

The way I see it, full batten sails are spreading, except for in-mast furling.

But I have a fully battented main. I agree as a full sail boat it’s a far better sail. But for a motorsailor (based on other motorsailors I’ve seen) if it’s more difficult to stow (I love the battens, but striking the sail and stowing on the boom with battens is more difficult) a typical motorsailor is less likely to use it.

[robert sailor]

No one is going to debate which is the better sail, although I prefer the top 2 batten full and the rest long with as much roach as I can get, overlapping the backstage. But most of the time a motor sailer is not even going to consider putting up sails unless the wind is decent, forget light winds, and preferable if it's on the beam or aft. Generally motor sailers motor but if they get a decent wind and they are not close hauled then adding the sails make sense. The full batten main gives you the biggest bang when your sailing to weather, off the wind not as much but most guys dont want to climb up to the second storey and start pulling of sail covers to add a 1/2 knot to their boat speed. Furler can be pulled out in a mater of seconds and more importantly it can be reefed in about the same time so its just really easy. If someone purchased a motor sailer in the first place you know that they are more motor than sailor and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Wckoek]

Thank you for the input from both sides, the boat itself wasn't that bad a sailer being 60% sail, masthead sloop with 771 sq ft of sails and a SA/D a little more than 14 and 330 gallons of fuel capacity to compliment.
Battenless is lighter, easier and cheaper and could work well enough if it is cut properly.
Robert Sailer suggests top two full and bottom standard.

How about all 4 standard, would this be the both world or worse being the middle of both grounds?

[robert sailor]

Actually I guess my writing needs to be overhauled a bit. I was describing what kind of sail was my favorite and it is not full batten on all battens. I like the top 2 batten to be full and the rest of the battens to be long but not full battens. I won't get into why as that's another topic. My opinion on your vessel was based on my personal experience with motor sailors and while I have sailed them my experience is more limited compared to other sail boats. Consider this, virtually every charter boat has a furling main and a huge percentage of cruise boats come from the yard with the same furling main. There is a reason, they are very convenient to operate and sail with. Just go around and look at new boats at the boat shows..If they are cruising boats your going to see a furling main 90% of the time. Race boats or racer cruisers will be a conventional battened main. People these days prefer convenience over ultimate performance when they are buying cruising boats.
Back to your boat, I wasn't trying to put your boats sailing ability down, hell these days a huge percentage of sailors wait until the wind dies so they can motor where they are going and most boats spend much more time under motor than they do sailing which actually makes a boat like yours a pretty good choice. In my experience the motorsailers motor better than they sail, usually a very large powerful motor compared to most sailboats and even the likes of Steve Dashew designed his boats to motor to windward rather than sail. Doesn't mean that they can't sail but if it were me I'd put a furling main on just because it's so damn easy and convenient to operate. Obviously if I owned a boat that I was going to race part time, then no I'd never put a furling main on it. Either way I hope you get a great deal of enjoyment from your boat...R

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually I guess my writing needs to be overhauled a bit. I was describing what kind of sail was my favorite and it is not full batten on all battens. I like the top 2 batten to be full and the rest of the battens to be long but not full battens. I won't get into why as that's another topic. My opinion on your vessel was based on my personal experience with motor sailors and while I have sailed them my experience is more limited compared to other sail boats. Consider this, virtually every charter boat has a furling main and a huge percentage of cruise boats come from the yard with the same furling main. There is a reason, they are very convenient to operate and sail with. Just go around and look at new boats at the boat shows..If they are cruising boats your going to see a furling main 90% of the time. Race boats or racer cruisers will be a conventional battened main. People these days prefer convenience over ultimate performance when they are buying cruising boats.
Back to your boat, I wasn't trying to put your boats sailing ability down, hell these days a huge percentage of sailors wait until the wind dies so they can motor where they are going and most boats spend much more time under motor than they do sailing which actually makes a boat like yours a pretty good choice. In my experience the motorsailers motor better than they sail, usually a very large powerful motor compared to most sailboats and even the likes of Steve Dashew designed his boats to motor to windward rather than sail. Doesn't mean that they can't sail but if it were me I'd put a furling main on just because it's so damn easy and convenient to operate. Obviously if I owned a boat that I was going to race part time, then no I'd never put a furling main on it. Either way I hope you get a great deal of enjoyment from your boat...R

Yes, I think I am going for a furling main, and as you mention in a post above while they can have battens, they aren't really necessary.
Thank you for making thus clear for me.

[Ardbeg]

Remember batten free sails can be a bitch to furl in high wind when trying to reef. They can jam when under too much pressure. On a previous boat I had vertical battens. Again a bitch to furl when needed to reef and over powered. I have 4 battens on current main with Dutchman. In hind sight would probably been better with a stack pack.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Ardbeg

Remember batten free sails can be a bitch to furl in high wind when trying to reef. They can jam when under too much pressure. On a previous boat I had vertical battens. Again a bitch to furl when needed to reef and over powered. I have 4 battens on current main with Dutchman. In hind sight would probably been better with a stack pack.

I will keep that in mind, though I think I haven't have that much sail area, maybe not as difficult as pure sailboats.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

But I have a fully battented main. I agree as a full sail boat it’s a far better sail. But for a motorsailor (based on other motorsailors I’ve seen) if it’s more difficult to stow (I love the battens, but striking the sail and stowing on the boom with battens is more difficult) a typical motorsailor is less likely to use it.

I would disagree on two points: Technically, we have a motorsailer: she is steel, full-keeled and far from overcanvased, but I prefer to think of her as a sailer-motor: a boat we prefer to sail. We just got a new, slightly more roachy main, with full battens and the Tides Marine slug system, which is more than typical slugs, but not quite as elaborate as, say, Harken BattCars.

We are happy with the results. The main is easy to hoist and stow (and will be more so with the addition of jackstays) and has a sweet shape. We keep it fully out longer because it is better behaved, and even reefed (which I chose deliberately to have "very deep first and second reefs", instead of three or four, for simplicity's sake and because we are cutter-rigged and mostly downwind sailors), the main is effective.

We got a steel cutter for stowage, safety and comfort. I would rather make 4 knots SOG in 10 knots wind with all sails out than motor at 6 or 7, but that's me. A well-planned main is key to that, and here's my reasoning: https://alchemy2009.blogspot.ca/2016...ch-aboard.html

[AlanR]

Quote:

We are happy with the results. The main is easy to hoist and stow (and will be more so with the addition of jackstays) and has a sweet shape.

I think you mean lazyjacks.

I have sailed a motor-sailor for over thirty years, and recently changed to four full-length battens. I nearly always have a sail up, when motoring; genoa when running, and main when going upwind, as it reduces rolling very significantly. Dead upwind, no more luffing due to the curve imposed on the sail by the battens. A big improvement over the normal length battens I had before. A sail will mean a bit more speed sometimes, or a fuel saving, so why not?

The weight of the battens aids dropping, and I have lazyjacks which, in combination with the battens, hold the sail on top of the boom. A gentle pull on the two reefing pennants adds further control of the sail.

The lazyjacks are attached to the sail cover, which has a full-length batten along each side of the opening, with a zip fastener in the centre, so on arrival, a minimal amount of sail tidying, then zip it up.

Hope this is useful.

Alan