New larger headsail question

[mjgill1]

We have a 2012 Seaward 32 RK. It has a fully battened mainsail and came with a 110% jib. The original sails were not in the greatest shape when we bought the boat, so we had the original sail loft, Super Sail Makers, who were a Doyle dealer at the time (now a North Sails dealer) make us a new 110% jib, mainsail and we added a UPS (Utility power sail) aka code zero,, that I call a reacher to the mix. We did it right with all the accessories; fairleads, Seldon furler, continuous furling line, double fiddle block with everything led to the cockpit. SSM did a great job and everything was fine for a while.

After getting used to the boat and becoming better sailors, we started club racing. We enjoy it and will likely continue to do so. One thing we noticed is on lighter air days our jib just couldn't compete, though it was pretty nice on those 20 knot days.. Many of the boats we race against have 135% or 150% Genoas. If we used our UPS sail we got penalized as if it were a spinnaker, so I thought a 135% genoa would be a good idea for the boat to make us more competitive. I had another loft who also has switched to North Sails build me one.

The Seaward has inboard car tracks. I suppose many boats do. We just brought the boat down to the west coast of FL for a few weeks of cruising. I stowed the 110% and bent on the 135. The first thing I noticed was that it is huge! More importantly and finally to the point of the thread is that the sheets are constantly rubbing on the safety lines regardless of the car position. This seems unsat to me, but I encourage your input. As we were heading south towards Marco Island, we were on a reach and as an experiment I sheeted in the sail. The leach was folded in, the sail looked like a bag with poor shape and wrinkles near the luff. If I tried to sheet it in, it was in contact with the spreaders. That's about all I can think of right now. I called the loft and the guy suggested I buy snatch blocks ( probably $700 by now), run the sheets outside the lifelines or try tying a mooring line to a D clip from the toe rail to the clue of the sail. Also, said Genoa is an upwind sail. I thought a 135% genoa would be a great general purpose sail?

WTF? Am I crazy. Upon our original conversations, I explained exactly what I have and what I want to accomplish. I was under the impression that the new 135% Genoa would run just fine with the set up I have.

Has anyone else had similar issues when going from a jib to a genoa? Any reasonable input is very welcome. Never had anyone tell me to run a mooring line from the clue to the toe rail before. It seems nuts to me, but maybe Genoas are that much different? Frustrated.

Thanks in advance,

[Knotical]

My apologies if I don’t understand your concern properly but based on the first photo I can say the following

-wind is light
-car lead position is forward for reaching but with the sail sheeted in the leech is hooked
-hooked leech won’t keep the wind attached to the sail

You can try letting the sheet out and see if the shape comes back, you can also try to move the car lead aft a little.

I do use the outboard cars when sailing downwind as it helps the clew rise properly.

[mjgill1]

Originally Posted by Knotical

My apologies if I don’t understand your concern properly but based on the first photo I can say the following



-wind is light

-car lead position is forward for reaching but with the sail sheeted in the leech is hooked

-hooked leech won’t keep the wind attached to the sail



You can try letting the sheet out and see if the shape comes back, you can also try to move the car lead aft a little.



I do use the outboard cars when sailing downwind as it helps the clew rise properly.

No outside cars on this boat. Thought it would be more "plug and play". Never heard of or seen anyone rerig their running rigging when purchasing a new sail. Looking for input from experienced folks. Not sure what to think. At bare minimum I would think the sheets shouldn't be rubbing on the lifelines.

[Snore]

A few things. First, buy and master the use of garhauer adjustable Genoa cars.

Second it looks like you have a slotted toe rail. Do some research and confirm you can attach a snatch block to it. If so, when AWA> about 110, run the jib sheet through the toe rail mounted snatch block.

Finally, I use a heavy fabric tri-radial 135 jib. It tends to keep shape better in light air, and hold up well until the wind reaches jib-reef speed. That would likely work for your boat. But check with others who own that design.

[nuku34]

Advice from an experienced racer/cruiser:

I have inboard tracks (and no outboard tracks on the toe rails) on my Cavalier 32 sloop. I use 130% (10-18kts) and 155% (0-12kts) genoas. Both sails have their clews about 10" above the top lifeline. Both sails are designed to use the same car position for beating (this was done when I designed and ordered the sails). When beating with either jib sheeted in tight and the car in the correct position, there is no "hook" in the leech, the sail is about 4"-8" off the spreader end (depending on wind strength), and the sheet is just inside the top lifeline (not rubbing on it).

However as soon as the sheet is eased for reaching, the clew automatically moves outward and the sheet starts to rub on the top lifeline. This is completely normal (its just simple geometry), but not good for the lifeline, the sheet and the shape of the jib.


My solution, based on 45 years of racing and cruising, is to have a second car with attached block ahead of the aftermost one (in my case about 12"). Through this car is permanently rigged a second "reaching" sheet with a snap shackle on its forward end. When not in use, the snap shackle is clipped to the lower lifeline, just forward of the stanchion opposite its car. The sheet goes back to the secondary winch.
Obviously this is duplicated on both sides of the boat.

When its time to slack the "primary" sheet and go into reaching mode, I go forward, lead the second "reaching" sheet between the top and bottom lifelines and snap it into the genoa clew, this sheet goes back to my secondary winch (aft of the primary) and gets pulled tight, then I slack the primary sheet until the strain is on the reaching sheet. The "reaching" sheet now controls the genoa, the sheet doesn't rub on either top or bottom lifeline, and the sheet lead has now moved forward, as it should be for reaching. The primary sheet just stays slack and droops over the top lifeline.

The "reaching" sheets can be fairly short because you unsnap them from the clew before you tack; they are used only for reaching. You do need to have primary and secondary winches (but if you are racing you need secondary winches for the spinnaker anyway). You do need the extra cars, blocks and sheets. (boats are holes in the water into which you pour $).



As soon as you go on a reach, the sheet lead needs to move forward for proper shape of the genoa, so the double sheet setup serves 2 purposes. If none of this makes sense to you, then you really do need to learn the basics about sail shape and how to tune a sail.

Sailing is the real physical world, NOT "plug and play". It takes time (and $) to tune a boat for optimum performance on all points of sail. When you have 2 different size genoas, you are not necessarily going to be able to just use the same sheet position on your tracks for both sails (I could, because I designed both sails at the same time to do just that.



If you really get into racing, you will realize that even with the same sail, for optimum performance you will need to adjust the car position depending on sea state and wind strength. Top racing boats have genoa cars that are infinitely adjustable from the cockpit.

Good luck!

[Orion Jim]

Sheeting angles maintain sail shape and need to be adjusted as wind intensity changes and wind direction fluctuates. This is a vitally important component which your sailmaker should have taken into consideration when he visited your boat to see what hardware you had and what would be needed to maintain sail shape over the designed range. The final design of the sail should have been tailored to fit your intended use and the deck hardware arrangement mutually decided upon.

[mjgill1]

Great answers. I know my lack of experience shows here, but am humble enough to ask the experts. Thank you. I will make some calls and play with the sail. Here are the cars we have. For the record, I am always looking at sail shape and adjusting. I enjoy the challenge of making the boat run as well as she can.

[Calif.Ted]

The first thing I noticed was that it is huge!

That's not huge, this is huge, move your cars back.

[mjgill1]

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

That's not huge, this is huge, move your cars back.

Ok, yours is bigger. The cars in the previous picture are in the stowed position. The sail is not in use in the picture.

[psk125]

Nuku has some good points. Many people set up their Genoa sheets with barber-haulers so that they can pull the clew of the sail either in or out, as needed. This is in addition to adjusting the jib cars on the tracks with 4:1 (or more) tackles so that they can be moved under load. Sounds like snatch blocks are in your future. https://www.zoro.com/ronstan-snatch-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds They're less than $700 and very handy. We used them as guy hooks on our J/36, among other things. Your shrouds and track seem suited to using a Genoa, though the slot does look a bit tight. Not much you can do about that without looking for a new boat. For reaching, as your sailmaker suggests, leading the sheet outboard will be better. Neither he nor you can do much about the lifelines. FYI, we've been racing our NTU (new to us) Sabre 402 with a 130% Genoa. Dismal performance for our heavyweight Sabre in the light air of Long Island Sound. For Christmas we got a new main and 150% Genoa. Are looking forward to seeing the difference, though we realize it will be harder to tack.

[TrentePieds]

mjgill:

I've hesitated to answer your query because you've been a member for quite some time, and I didn't want to seem to be talking down to you. You have now told us that you have only a little actual experience, so I will tell you what I tell students :-):

Your sheet block needs to be correctly positioned fore'n'aft and also thwartships, so we'll do it in two steps:

Draw an imaginary line from the headsails luff through the sails clew. [a "clue" is something else :-)]. This line should intersect the luff (fore edge) of the sail at a right angle. Now imagine that that line is extended aft and down to where it intersects the deck. That position on the deck is where your block should be located in the fore'n'aft direction. You can easily see that for different sizes of headsail, this position of the block will be different. I have long tracks, and I mark the block's position on the track with a mark for each size of headsail.

Fine tuning of the sail is done by moving the block fore or aft from that basic position until you get the relative tensions of foot and leach that you want, or in other words, you control the "twist" of the sail by shifting the block fore or aft.

Beginners have a tendency to "over-sheet" their sails, i.e. to sheet them in too hard. Assuming your block's fore'n'aft position is about correct, you'll want, when on a beam reach and above, to sheet in the sail so it JUST fills. That will be where it has the most efficient airfoil shape. In practice, you pick up your course to steer. That automatically gives you your "point of sail". Now you let out your sheet till the sail "luffs", i.e. flops about in the wind. Then you haul in your sheet till the sail fills. Then you ease out the sheet till the luff of the sail JUST collapses. Then you harden the sheet again till the sail JUST fills. Now, the trim of that sail is correct, and as the wind shifts about a bit, you keep adjusting the sheet - ease and harden, ease and harden - so that the sail is always JUST on the verge of luffing.

Thwartships positioning of the blocks is not usually much of a problem in a cruising boat. If it's on or very near the side of the hull, such as JUST inboard of the rail, you'll be good.

Try doing it that way, and you'll not have any problem, but don't "pinch" the boat. Don't sail it closer to the wind than it really wants to go. As a beginner, try to sail no closer to the wind than 45º. You can tell by your steering compass. If, when you go from port tack to starboard tack and vise versa, your heading changes by 90º, i.e. 2 times 45º, you'll be doing fine. A taking angle of 110º is also fine. For a beginner :-)

With big headsails such as genoas there is often interference with (or from) the lifelines. I have mine arranged so I can open up a "gate" between the pulpit and the lifelines. The bottom cloth of the sail, slips through that gate and the "deck-sweeping" foot of the sail then follows the curve of the deck without being interfered with.

If you follow my advice about the fore'n'aft positioning of the sheet block, your sail, when your are "hard on the wind", i.e. your TRUE wind angle is 45º or so, will not touch the spreaders. Depending on wind strength and boat speed, the APPARENT wind angle will be quite a bit less than 45º.

If you find the above useful, we can "put some polish on it" when you come back :-)!

All the best.

TrentePieds

[davecalvert]

This seems to be a measurement problem between the boat and the sailmaker.
On catamarans, the genoa needs to fit inside the shrouds and around the diamond wires and spreaders. To have proper upwind sheeting, the track and sheet blocks need to be close to 10 degrees off centerline. Using blocks on the toe rail or edge of the decks, will be much too far outboard for upwind sailing.
We have built a lot of screachers for the Seawind catamarans but, these tack to the bow sprit and trim inboard with the sail inside the shrouds. The leech has to clear the upper part of the shrouds. That is the restricting factor to foot length.

[TrentePieds]

davecalvert said: "...the track and sheet blocks need to be close to 10 degrees off centerline."

That is so in monos also. That is a function of the "angle of attach" required by the airfoil of the sail, which is a function of cut. "Angle of attack" is optimized by adjusting "angle of incidence", i.e. by adjusting the sheet.

In a cruising monohull it is often the case that a 10º Angle of Attack coincides with the foot of the sail following the rail very closely, and that the sail-set is therefore interfered with by the shrouds, the top-mast stays, the spreaders and life lines.

The OP sails a 5 ton trailer-sailer, he tells us - not a catamaran.

TP