New sails for Coastal Cruising

[ForeverDes]

I'm looking to order all new sails for my New Horizons 26' in the very near future, hopefully in time to catch some fall discount savings.
For reference it's a full-keel, mast head sloop with about 333sqft/31sqm of sail area according to sailboatdata.com. I'll be mostly inland and coastal cruising, and at most crossing the jet stream to island hop in the Caribbean.


I'm looking for general advice on what to watch out for in the design, cloth selection, etc. I took some basic measurements, and I've reached out to 4 sail makers and gotten rough quotes from 3. Two were within about 10-15% of each other. The quotes aren't quite an apples to apples comparison, but they are close enough.


One quote is for 6 oz cloth, the other is for 7 oz. Is one better than the other?
Is a tri-radial sail worth the extra cost of about $400?
I have a stack-pack cover on the main sail, so I'd prefer full battens, but I've been told that one or two partials is better because it has less friction when raising or lowering the sail. Thoughts?
Is it reasonable to go with a 135% genoa on a roller furling and plan to roller reef in stronger winds? I currently have about a 90% jib (bought secondhand but unused) and it sure seems under powered, but I plan on keeping it for a working jib/ spare.
I'd like to raise the foot of the mainsail by 6" to 12" so it doesn't drag on the Bimini. Will this change the balance of the boat significantly?
Neither quote includes a light air sail, despite my request for a quote in my initial contact. Is it better to get all sails from one source at the same time? And, I assume an asymmetrical spinnaker is the most versatile?

What other questions should I be asking?

I'd like to get the most versatile, longest lasting sails for my boat, with price being a slightly secondary concern. I sure don't want to pay 2x for sails that I don't have the skill to get any more performance or longevity from, but paying a little extra for better quality/better performance/longer lasting sails is fine.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by ForeverDes

I'm looking to order all new sails for my New Horizons 26' in the very near future, hopefully in time to catch some fall discount savings.
For reference it's a full-keel, mast head sloop with about 333sqft/31sqm of sail area according to sailboatdata.com. I'll be mostly inland and coastal cruising, and at most crossing the jet stream to island hop in the Caribbean.


I'm looking for general advice on what to watch out for in the design, cloth selection, etc. I took some basic measurements, and I've reached out to 4 sail makers and gotten rough quotes from 3. Two were within about 10-15% of each other. The quotes aren't quite an apples to apples comparison, but they are close enough.
Generally, for coastal cruising I would be careful to not overdo the sails. Heavily leathered and thick, stiff construction, which is an asset for long term offshore work, is not desireable for coast cruising and at high cost also, as it effects the sail shape etc until stronger wind.

One quote is for 6 oz cloth, the other is for 7 oz. Is one better than the other? I would let the sailmakers explain that. Too heavy not good for light airs. But neither of those sound heavy
Is a tri-radial sail worth the extra cost of about $400?
I doubt it.
I have a stack-pack cover on the main sail, so I'd prefer full battens, but I've been told that one or two partials is better because it has less friction when raising or lowering the sail. Thoughts?
I have had full battens with expensive ball bearing Harken cars. Not a big fan, but it is nice for sail shape but bad for wear and handling.
Is it reasonable to go with a 135% genoa on a roller furling and plan to roller reef in stronger winds? I currently have about a 90% jib (bought secondhand but unused) and it sure seems under powered, but I plan on keeping it for a working jib/ spare.
Depends on the boat really, but I am more comfortable with more like a 120% on a lighter boat. However, if your main use is summer and air is light in your summers maybe the 135%.
I'd like to raise the foot of the mainsail by 6" to 12" so it doesn't drag on the Bimini. Will this change the balance of the boat significantly? No, but 12" would be a lot, do the minimal
Neither quote includes a light air sail, despite my request for a quote in my initial contact. Is it better to get all sails from one source at the same time? And, I assume an asymmetrical spinnaker is the most versatile?
A light air sail is the 135% to me. You can always get a drifter or assym later.

What other questions should I be asking?
Leech adjustment lines?
Type of battens and pockets?
Reefing cringles?
Head and clew hardware? Do you want D ring on the clew or cringle?
Would you like a flattening reef on the main? Probably not if you are cutting the foot back a bit anyway.
What type of mainsail slides do you have? Are the slides webbed to the sail or just SS shackles. Webbing is nicer.
How is your helm? Do you want less roach to correct too much weather helm?

I'd like to get the most versatile, longest lasting sails for my boat, with price being a slightly secondary concern. I sure don't want to pay 2x for sails that I don't have the skill to get any more performance or longevity from, but paying a little extra for better quality/better performance/longer lasting sails is fine.

Notes above in bold.

[Pete7]

I would agree with Cheechako.

In terms of cloth this might be a useful guide. Certainly try to avoid the budget cloths if offered. We have C Breeze.

https://www.sanders-sails.co.uk/materials.html

[ForeverDes]

First off, Thanks for the quick responses.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I have had full battens with expensive ball bearing Harken cars. Not a big fan, but it is nice for sail shape but bad for wear and handling.

I thought full battens would be easier for raising and lowering the main sail into the stack pack, but was leaning towards 2 full (upper) and 2 partial (lower) to balance sail shape/wear/ease of handling. With all partial battens on my current sail, the upper battens can sometimes twist around the lazy jacks as I lower or get caught on the way up, so I was trying to eliminate that problem.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I'd like to raise the foot of the mainsail by 6" to 12" so it doesn't drag on the Bimini. Will this change the balance of the boat significantly? No, but 12" would be a lot, do the minimal

I think 6" is sufficient, but I'll know more once I decide on a sail maker and take some closer measurements as per their instructions.

Originally Posted by Pete7

I would agree with Cheechako.

In terms of cloth this might be a useful guide. Certainly try to avoid the budget cloths if offered. We have C Breeze.

https://www.sanders-sails.co.uk/materials.html

The most attractive quote is for 7 oz. C Breeze for both sails. I take it you're happy with it on your boat?

[sesmith]

More important than the weight may be what grade cloth the sailmaker is using. There are budget cloths and there are premium cloths. On the weight, ask the sailmaker for the reasons for his choice.

I've always had full batten sails, and our sail maker recommends them. Maybe a bit of an issue when dropping the sail, but I'd rather have the shape when sailing.

Tri radial will hold their shape better if made right. You'll get better bang for your buck on a masthead rig spending the extra bucks on a tri radial genoa and saving a few bucks on a crosscut main, as most of the drive comes from the headsail. You also have many more sail shaping adjustments on the main. I would (did) go with a 135 genoa with foam leach for sail shape when reefing.

You didn't mention it, but go with a loose foot main.

Choose your sailmaker carefully. A local one can do the measuring and take a look at the bimini.clearance. I know a great sailmaker in Vermont, if interested.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by ForeverDes

First off, Thanks for the quick responses.


I thought full battens would be easier for raising and lowering the main sail into the stack pack, but was leaning towards 2 full (upper) and 2 partial (lower) to balance sail shape/wear/ease of handling. With all partial battens on my current sail, the upper battens can sometimes twist around the lazy jacks as I lower or get caught on the way up, so I was trying to eliminate that problem.

I think 6" is sufficient, but I'll know more once I decide on a sail maker and take some closer measurements as per their instructions.

The most attractive quote is for 7 oz. C Breeze for both sails. I take it you're happy with it on your boat?

My full battens were kind of 'pre loaded' so the batten forced pressure forward to the Harken car on the mast. This made for resistance and some curve of the battens when stacking the sail.
A friend of mine bought a full batten main that was a simple main with no pressure forward and no cars etc. Just long battens. For cruising it seemed like a good setup.
I thought normally shorter battens would be at the top of the sail not the bottom.

[Pete7]

Yes, the cloth is made by Dimension Polyant, a Dutch parent company I believe. The Dutch and Germans don't really do cheap, preferring quality. So the standard material from DP compares very well with other manufacturers.

We have a 141% Genoa made from 7oz and an inmast main also in 7%. Genoa dates from 2014 and main from 2018.

Two mistakes were made neither the fault of the cloth. Firstly the sun cover on the leech is the same colour as the sail cloth so can't be seen easily that it fully covers the sail. Back to blue next time. Secondly the 141% genoa is too big and I will probably downsize to 125%. The minor loss of sail area isn't going to change our coastal sailing but would enable us to hold onto full sail slightly longer and therefore the better shape.

Both sails in still in really good condition but we do drop the genoa for the winter and the main lives nicely rolled away inside the mast.

You might also ask how much extra Dimension Polyant AP or SF will cost. If the sail maker has cloth on the shelf and you order late Autumn earlier winter there may be a deal to be done with a free upgrade. No harm in asking, and early winter definitely the time to order.

Pete

[ForeverDes]

Replies in Bold

Originally Posted by sesmith

More important than the weight may be what grade cloth the sailmaker is using. There are budget cloths and there are premium cloths. On the weight, ask the sailmaker for the reasons for his choice. Good point. I was easier to grasp 6 vs 7 oz than the difference in the cloth. But I'm researching the brand names of from each quote.

I've always had full batten sails, and our sail maker recommends them. Maybe a bit of an issue when dropping the sail, but I'd rather have the shape when sailing.
What was the issue when dropping the sail?


Tri radial will hold their shape better if made right. You'll get better bang for your buck on a masthead rig spending the extra bucks on a tri radial genoa and saving a few bucks on a crosscut main, as most of the drive comes from the headsail. You also have many more sail shaping adjustments on the main. I would (did) go with a 135 genoa with foam leach for sail shape when reefing. Do you mean it will hold it's shape while sailing, or will suffer less stress/stretch over the years? I'm not likely to get maximum performance from any sail, so the longevity is far more important to me.
You didn't mention it, but go with a loose foot main.Definitely.

Choose your sailmaker carefully. A local one can do the measuring and take a look at the bimini.clearance. I know a great sailmaker in Vermont, if interested.
Unfortunately there aren't any local sail makers. The closest seem to be a 2+ hour drive from me.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

My full battens were kind of 'pre loaded' so the batten forced pressure forward to the Harken car on the mast. This made for resistance and some curve of the battens when stacking the sail.
A friend of mine bought a full batten main that was a simple main with no pressure forward and no cars etc. Just long battens. For cruising it seemed like a good setup. Gotcha, makes a lot of sense.
I thought normally shorter battens would be at the top of the sail not the bottom.
Yes, the top battens would be shorter, but stretch from luff to leech, while the bottom battens would be longer, but only reach halfway or so across the sail.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes, the cloth is made by Dimension Polyant, a Dutch parent company I believe. The Dutch and Germans don't really do cheap, preferring quality. So the standard material from DP compares very well with other manufacturers. Very good to hear.

You might also ask how much extra Dimension Polyant AP or SF will cost. If the sail maker has cloth on the shelf and you order late Autumn earlier winter there may be a deal to be done with a free upgrade. No harm in asking, and early winter definitely the time to order. I'll ask, it can't hurt!

Pete

[guyrj33]

In the beginning when the sails are new there won’t be any difference between a cross cut and a try radial sail. They tri radial sail should hold its shape longer.
I recommend 4 full length battens.
Could you lower the dodger?

[Kd9truck]

Have you gotten a quote from National Sail supply? They make quality cruising sails. I’ve got 849.67 feet of sail area, there price was half that of North, UK, and quantum. I like a full battened main, sail shape is more important to me than a quick striking, and they put 3 rows of reefs in at my request. 5 weeks dilivered to my front door.
I would take as little off the foot of your main as possible, The contact issue is a dodger issue not a boom one, the dodger is inferior to the boom. Is your boom at 90° to the mast when rubbing? Do you have a topping lift? Can it be raised higher to take the chafe off the dodger, Are your dodger bows moveable/adjustable, I have a fair amount of play in mine when I take the dodger tightening points out of tension.
I constructed my Dodger off of the existing frame, i was able to change the angles of the bows to get better head room and less possibly of contact by moving the bows to my Perfered position, which was much different that the old dodger, a few inches make a big difference.
How is the vinyl windows? If they need replacing you can make adjustments to the size that will change the position of the bows.

Cheers

[ForeverDes]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

In the beginning when the sails are new there won’t be any difference between a cross cut and a try radial sail. They tri radial sail should hold its shape longer.
I recommend 4 full length battens.
Could you lower the dodger?

I was told by my sailmaker the opposite, that a tri radial will develop sag and lose shape faster than a cross cut. Also, I have round slugs for my mainsail and I worry they'll have too much friction with 4 full length battens.

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

Have you gotten a quote from National Sail supply? They make quality cruising sails. I’ve got 849.67 feet of sail area, there price was half that of North, UK, and quantum. I like a full battened main, sail shape is more important to me than a quick striking, and they put 3 rows of reefs in at my request. 5 weeks dilivered to my front door.
I would take as little off the foot of your main as possible, The contact issue is a dodger issue not a boom one, the dodger is inferior to the boom. Is your boom at 90° to the mast when rubbing? Do you have a topping lift? Can it be raised higher to take the chafe off the dodger, Are your dodger bows moveable/adjustable, I have a fair amount of play in mine when I take the dodger tightening points out of tension.
I constructed my Dodger off of the existing frame, i was able to change the angles of the bows to get better head room and less possibly of contact by moving the bows to my Perfered position, which was much different that the old dodger, a few inches make a big difference.
How is the vinyl windows? If they need replacing you can make adjustments to the size that will change the position of the bows.

Cheers

National Sail supply is not one of the 4 I have contacted, but thanks for the suggestion, I'll reach out to them.
My boom is 90 degrees now, and I can't lower the Bimini any more without breaking it down completely, I've already removed as much from the main supports as I can below the main hinge point. And I'm not worried as much about chafe as I am the main sheet catching during a tack. Raising the clew would keep the boom from dragging and give me a better angle on the main sheet as well. I don't have a topping lift but could easily use a spare halyard as one. Currently my lazy jacks hold the boom up, and I loosen them when the sail is loaded. It's a bimini, not a dodger, so no windows, and it's brand new this season, but also was exceptionally cheap (<$150) so I'm not worried if I need to replace it sooner rather than later.

[Benz]

Full battens make the sail harder to handle: try reefing while going downwind with them, or lowering the sail while going so. In my experience full battens pretty much shut that down, and I find great value in being able to do that. Your boat is small enough that flaking the sail by hand into the stack pack (which I'd get rid of, personally), is not difficult. I've sailed boats bigger than that without any lazy jacks at all, but you can also reconfigure the lazies so the batten doesn't tend to catch. There's also the Dutchman reefing system, which eliminates lazy jacks and surprised me with it's efficiency on a 42-foot boat.
7-oz seems perfectly heavy for that size boat.

[guyrj33]

ok, looking at the sail plan for your boat, I'd skip tri-radial sails and go with crosscut. It's a small boat and the forces aren't that high and the use is coastal cruising.
I think it's a lot easier for a sail maker to build crosscut sails and I suspect that less precision is needed to build crosscut sails as compared to tri-radial sails.

On our 33' sloop we have 4 full battens with flat slides in an internal track, no problems raising and lowering the sail. We also have lazy jacks and a stack pack style sail cover. The lazy jacks and sail cover make it easier and faster to go sailing, which means we go more often. Also make it easier for guests to help with furling the main sail.

I see that your boom extends over most of your cockpit. You're sailing in Southern waters and a Bimini would be nice to have. Have you considered a shorter Bimini that runs from the end of the boom to aft of the stern?

[JimsCAL]

I"be had my current boat for 13 years and have replaced both sails. Genny is 135 on furler with suncover and foam luff. Main has 2 full battens, 2 reefs and Dutchman system. Both are crosscut quality Dacron. Both sails holding up well. I am not a fan of full battened mains and find the Dutchman system far superior to lazy jacks.

[ForeverDes]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

The lazy jacks and sail cover make it easier and faster to go sailing, which means we go more often. Also make it easier for guests to help with furling the main sail.

I see that your boom extends over most of your cockpit. You're sailing in Southern waters and a Bimini would be nice to have. Have you considered a shorter Bimini that runs from the end of the boom to aft of the stern?

I agree! I'm not willing to give my stack pack and lazy jacks for the same reason: I'm more willing to raise the sails when it's so quick and easy.
I've got solar behind my Bimini just a bit higher than my boom. The space between is perfect for my main sheet. Since the solar panels shade there I don't need anything else.

Originally Posted by JimsCAL

I"be had my current boat for 13 years and have replaced both sails. Genny is 135 on furler with suncover and foam luff. Main has 2 full battens, 2 reefs and Dutchman system. Both are crosscut quality Dacron. Both sails holding up well. I am not a fan of full battened mains and find the Dutchman system far superior to lazy jacks.

I've always thought the dutchman system looked nice, and I guess now would be the time to change over if I am ever going to. But I like just zipping/unzipping the stack pack, doesn't a dutchman main require a separate sail cover?
No sail maker has suggested a foam luff yet, unless I missed it, but you are the second to mention it. I take it helps maintain shape of the headsail while partially furled?