New Sails ... sailcloth choice?

[Kelkara]

I'm shopping around for new sails, and have requested quotes from several lofts ... only about half have replied.

Since I really don't know much about sails, I just asked for a quote for "general purpose dacron cruising sails". For a main and 135 genoa prices have ranged from $2500 to $4500 (Canadian). But the other thing that really struck me is that the weight of sailcloth recommended varies considerably from 5.4oz to 8.2oz with most averaging about 6.5oz. And I don't see a direct correlation between price and cloth weight. One loft recommended a heavier cloth for the genoa than the main, while another recommended a heavier cloth for the main than the genoa, while others were the same for both.

Should I take this variability to mean that it doesn't really matter? My thought is that lighter cloth will be better in lighter winds ... but does that mean that light cloth is bad in heavier wind? or is it just cheap light cloth that will be bad in heavy wind?

[mikedefieslife]

I've been bemoaning my sails while in the Med.

Mainly the Genoa. It's 7.5oz dacron. I'm a metric guy so I don't know if UK oz are different from US/Canadian ones. But I find that it's not possible to fill it lighter airs. Anything less than say 12knts and it's almost pointless getting it out.

Since I'm a cutter rig, I don't really see the need for such a heavy genoa, and when it comes time to replace it, I'll get something much lighter.

[Pete7]

Here are some links which may help to put the different names of sail cloth into some sort of pecking order for quality so you can start to see if they are value for money.

Sanders Sails: Materials | Sailmaking, Sailmakers, Yacht Marine Upholstery, Dinghies, Boat Design | Lymington, South Coast, Hampshire

Cruising Sails |

Whilst these are UK website it matters not a jot and I think Mack Sails also have a similar guide on their website.

Some more general knowledge which may be useful:

What difference do new sails make? - Practical Boat Owner

Finally do read back through CF for the dozens of other threads on the subject.

Pete

[barnakiel]

Get the lighter sails if your home area is mostly light. Get the heavier sails if your area is predominantly windy.

We are assuming same technology cloth. You can get a lighter but equally strong sail if you chose more exotic cloth.

Cheers,
b.

[SailsWithFists]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

But the other thing that really struck me is that the weight of sailcloth recommended varies considerably from 5.4oz to 8.2oz with most averaging about 6.5oz. And I don't see a direct correlation between price and cloth weight. One loft recommended a heavier cloth for the genoa than the main, while another recommended a heavier cloth for the main than the genoa, while others were the same for both.

Should I take this variability to mean that it doesn't really matter? My thought is that lighter cloth will be better in lighter winds ... but does that mean that light cloth is bad in heavier wind? or is it just cheap light cloth that will be bad in heavy wind?

Cloth weight matters. The differences in cloth weights is usually based on the difference between the minds and personal choices of the sail makers, along with what specifications they might have in the computers.

A 135% Genoa should be lighter than a 110%, and definitely lighter than the mainsail if you want it to set well in light air. A sailmaker should presume that you will only have the 135 up in lighter winds and either furled in some or replaced in moderate to heavy winds, so lighter sail cloth.

Some sailmakers will make the same considerations with the mainsail as well, but that varies. I prefer my sails to be a touch lighter than factory requirements for better setting and shape control. Sure they will not last as long, but I will take the performance over longevity. And by longevity, we are talking small percentages in difference: 9 years instead of 10 based on comparable usage.

[JPA Cate]

Kelkara,

Talk with some of the people from your area, who sail at the times of year you enjoy it, and with similar sized boats, and see which sailmakers they use, as well as the weights of cloths used. At your size, dacron sails will do you. And your whole set of sails should be maximized according to your rig and where you want to sail.

Ann

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by SailsWithFists

A 135% Genoa should be lighter than a 110%, and definitely lighter than the mainsail if you want it to set well in light air.

These are golden words.

Just why so few sailmakers apply them?

Maybe they do, for racers. But what does a cruiser get?

Case A - our own sails, from a renowned Swedish maker: main in 8 oz, genoa 150 in ... 8 oz (sic !). What did they think? Did they think? The main is only 14 sq m !!! 8 oz? Cape Horn quality?

Case B - myself working for a well known, global make, looking at new order of batch sails for Hunter: both sails the same weight and BOTH TOO HEAVY.

Or do we all go Cape Horn this season?

So, in short: if your main is X oz, if your genoa is 150%, if you want to make good use of the genoa, make sure it is MUCH lighter than your main.

Cheers,
b.

[Jim Cate]

Perhaps many sailmakers have noted that many modern sailors use that 150% genoa rolled way up in strong winds. If they used proper light weight sailcloth, the shape would be gone quite rapidly... perhaps shredded. This sort of abuse is SO common that they just design to a sort of lowest common denominator dummy sail customer.

Or they could just be lousy sailmakers!

Jim

[Kestrahl]

Jim Cate is correct that a furling 150% that will be reef furled will need to be heavier than a hank on 150% that will be changed to a smaller sail in heavier winds. When a sail is partly furled there are no corner patches at the tack and head anymore so the fabric has to be tough to take it. Furling genoas are generally the same weight cloth as the mainsail.
Sailcloth weight is best spec'ed from the boats displacement and your planned usage. If using locally then 7oz, if bluewater cruising then 8oz.
We have a 7.5oz CFG carbon No1 genoa and it is fine in light winds, previously had a 5oz pentex No1. From racing in drifting conditions several times, the difference when the 7.5oz will fill compared to the old 5oz is minimal, maybe 0.5knot more wind is required to fill the sail and lift the clew. And I'm talking 3-5 knots of wind, if you were cruising you would be motoring anyway in that wind range.

[mikedefieslife]

Surely it depends how strong a winds we're talking about.

In 30knt winds my genoa tends to get put away away rather than partly furled, so having a 7.5 or 8oz for me is pointless. I don't know what winds the OP sails in, but considering that even lightweight cruising code 0s aren't put away until about 14knts, a 6oz sail with padded luff (for furling) should be OK up to 25knts no?

When moaned to my sail maker about poor light air performance from the 36m2 Genoa (main is only 14m2), I was recommended at 6oz sail in run of mill Dacron, 5.77 in Marblehead or 5.11 in Challenge Warp Drive.

For comparison sake, the main was offered as 6.77oz.

They pretty much refused to quote for a laminate believing it to be pointless for a cruiser.

[barnakiel]

Well. All good points indeed.

One thing that could be done (for the furling one) is to add reef patches along the 100% area? Maybe simply lengths of spectra stickyback?

Mind also a cruising genoa is likely going to have acrylic UV strips along the leech and foot. This is built in overlap and so adds more than 16 oz to the tape area. Not as strong as dacron but still some muscle.

So Jim is 100 right in his comment. Reefed down to 100% the sail is fine.

Meanwhile, deployed to its 150% the same genoa becomes next to useless in light airs. Hence the boat stops in light airs. Hence "most cruisers will already motor in this wind range". For they have no other choice.

I would simply save the useless 25% of that big heavy genoa and ask for a sail no bigger than 120 or 125%.

There is no way out, IF ONE WANTS TO SAIL IT. If a genoa is big, it MUST be light. Or else the last 20% (130-150%) of the heavy cloth sail is nothing but a ballast hoisted up ;-)

Which sort of clearly suggests that a cruising boat is best served with two forestays and two foresails - a big light one ahead and a smaller heavier one inboard.

Our original genoa was 150 in 8 oz (mainsail weight). I have cut it down to about 125% half way thru our rtw. It became a much better sail. The guy who built the sail for us in Sweden was simply wrong.

Cheers,
b.

[thomm225]

My mainsail is 8 oz Dacron and I probably paid too much to have it made at $1,600.00

It's the heaviest mainsail I've owned since all my other boats were beach cats. The beach cat mainsails on my last two boats were technora and mylar. The 100% jibs on those boats were Dacron

This heavier mainsail will hold it's shape in most any wind and I've used it from say 3 knots to 30. It's luff is only 25'5" though

I'm thinking I'll also get more years out of it. It's maybe 5 years old now and is holding up well.

The jib which was purchased by the PO is of a lighter weight but so was his mainsail which was probably the 40 year old original

[Kestrahl]

At least part of the reason why the Op got such a variation in cloth weight on quotes.
The cloth companies recommend weight based on boat length. Some sailmakers just blindly follow these guidelines which in this case they are inaccurate. The Hullmaster is very heavy and powerful for its length to the point that some 27fters are lighter than the hullmasters ballast! The Bristol 27 is another example of a heavy powerful 27 although not as heavy as the hullmaster.
We did a lot of Heffeshoff 28 sails in NZ - all 8oz which was due to the boat weight and the local sailing conditions.
The cost per yard/meter doesn't vary greatly between weights. But it does vary for different quality dacron - up to double. Challenge is generally the cheapest and most common in the USA. Dimension Polyant is the most common in Europe.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

I'm shopping around for new sails, and have requested quotes from several lofts ... only about half have replied.

Since I really don't know much about sails, I just asked for a quote for "general purpose dacron cruising sails". For a main and 135 genoa prices have ranged from $2500 to $4500 (Canadian). But the other thing that really struck me is that the weight of sailcloth recommended varies considerably from 5.4oz to 8.2oz with most averaging about 6.5oz. And I don't see a direct correlation between price and cloth weight. One loft recommended a heavier cloth for the genoa than the main, while another recommended a heavier cloth for the main than the genoa, while others were the same for both.

Should I take this variability to mean that it doesn't really matter? My thought is that lighter cloth will be better in lighter winds ... but does that mean that light cloth is bad in heavier wind? or is it just cheap light cloth that will be bad in heavy wind?

No, it matters a great deal. So do your cruising grounds, the state of your standing rigging, your skill set and your intentions to sail in a wide range of conditions.

The sailcloth weight is only part of the equation, and perhaps the smallest part. Webbing, double or triple stitching, reinforced grommets, earings, Cunninghams...whether you are a weekender in fair weather or a passagemaker has a huge effect on sail choice.

Lighter cloth is better in lighter winds. Race weight sails are geared for this, but don't last long (generally) in part due to stretch from carrying a full hoist for speed right up to (or beyond) the advised pressure of a decent wind. That's why in part composites are so big in racing: they are light and strong, but it's a case of the less sail you have, the pricier it is!

We are going offshore. We have a steel pilothouse cutter with 12 5/16th inch stays. Everything is more or less overbuilt. So we got a new main with the idea that we would have a full hoist up longer before we reefed and that our first reef would be considerable. We also invested in a more robust mast track system and will have other sail control goodies to ensure we can handle the main in the rough stuff. That said, it's a slightly under-canvased motor-sailer we treat as a "sailer-motor", i.e. we are quite happy to cross oceans at five knots, implying our sails will be up in the trades for days at a time. That's the opposite of what I had on the last boat, an IOR-type racer-cruiser I fitted with recut composite sails for "fast cruising". You might want to learn a little more on the topic and then apply your learning to your own situation and typical style of cruising. A Hullmaster 27 is a relatively robust "good old boat". I think it's on the borderline of offshore capability, but it can certainly do any amount of coastal work. You might wish to see if the dimensionals of the main and genoa are close to other boats: you can get used (and "used" for a racer means "another five seasons" for a cruiser) sails recut for a couple of hundred bucks to see what materials and weights work for you.

Lastly, I will direct you to my blog post on how I designed (and conveyed to my sailmaker) our ocean-ready mainsail and why I made the decisions I did for our boat and our goals. None of it may apply to your situation, but it does illustrate, I hope, one way to achieve the goal of the right sails for you.
https://alchemy2009.blogspot.ca/2016...ch-aboard.html

[Maka]

Any thoughts on Tanbark ?