No Traveller

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, many cruisers sail with the mainsail just kind of stuck up in the wind somehow. They don't care much about the angle of attack or even shape of the mainsail as long as they are getting a bit of drive. Other people really like to sail, make the mainsail into a proper wing, and get it oriented just so into the wind. The second group, and you can put me in there, would just not accept not having control over the angle of attack of the sail.

The boat sailing well isn't just about speed it's also more comfortable and your going faster. Took me a while to work that one out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The boat sailing well isn't just about speed it's also more comfortable and your going faster. Took me a while to work that one out.

Absolutely right. A well-trimmed mainsail is not only faster, but less drag, often MUCH less drag, which means less heeling. And less stress in the gusts. And if you get overpowered, just letting the traveler down maybe even just a little bit, can solve it, if the sail is trimmed nice and smooth and flat, for strong conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Fuss

On inmast furling you want the angle that the sail furls away to always be the same. To achieve this you need a very meaty boom vang to keep the boom in the correct position. Mine keeps the boom in whatever position I choose regardless of what the main sheet is doing. The main sheets only purpose is to let the boom in and out. If you have the traditional triangular shaped typical in Mast furling main then, is the traveller really important for your leech trimming? What sort of vang do you have, is it powerful?

My vang is a Selden gas rod kicker and it is quite powerful, and my boom is part of the Selden triple spreader in-mast furling rig and also quite massive. So yes, the vang is pretty good for controlling boom angle and leech tension -- at least, off the wind. But once you're hard on the wind and sailing in strong conditions, it takes a lot of force to close the leech of the carbon laminate mainsail. I guess I could use the vang, but it just seems wrong, compared to doing it from the end of the boom with the multiple purchase dyneema mainsheet. Then again, maybe I'm just an old fart, set in my ways, and need to have a more open mind.

[daletournier]

I recently experienced this by ditching my genoa and now using my 100%jib. Faster and flatter by a large margin. Better in anything but the lighter stuff. The difference was a great deal more than I thought.

[thomm225]

This guy, who has sailed much of the World, appears to have changed up his Bristol 27 mainsheet system a bit rather than the way the original is with the split blocks. He has added a Vang though

His sails are looking pretty well trimmed in the lower picture. And it appears the main is from possibly a Catalina 27 since it's a bit oversized (longer luff)

A quiet achiever, sailing alone around the world

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

How much extra speed do you get by adjusting the main sheeting position with a traveller on say a 64ft yacht? note the website majors on the clean and uncluttered deck as a selling point, is this more important than an extra knot or two for the intended market?

Pete

As Dale Tournier explained, it's not just about an extra knot or two. But you may be right -- this boat has a 300hp diesel and bunkers a couple of tonnes of gasoil. It should be possible to motor that beast, with her elegantly fine hull (only 17 feet of beam, only a foot more than my boat) in any conditions. Maybe that's a clue. I would LOVE to have that kind of motoring capability, but not at the expense of sailing ability.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My vang is a Selden gas rod kicker and it is quite powerful, and my boom is part of the Selden triple spreader in-mast furling rig and also quite massive. So yes, the vang is pretty good for controlling boom angle and leech tension -- at least, off the wind. But once you're hard on the wind and sailing in strong conditions, it takes a lot of force to close the leech of the carbon laminate mainsail. I guess I could use the vang, but it just seems wrong, compared to doing it from the end of the boom with the multiple purchase dyneema mainsheet. Then again, maybe I'm just an old fart, set in my ways, and need to have a more open mind.

I'm not an old fart quite yet, but that's exactly how I see it. I wouldn't be comfortable loading my vang up to that extent on the wind. Also the blocks etc on my vang are not as substantial as my main sheet traveller setup.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thomm225

This guy, who has sailed much of the World, has changed up his Bristol 27 mainsheet system to a single point rather than the way the original is with the split blocks

His sails are looking pretty well trimmed in the lower picture. And it appears the main is from possibly a Catalina 27 since it's a bit oversized (longer luff)

A quiet achiever, sailing alone around the world

Are you serious?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I recently experienced this by ditching my genoa and now using my 100%jib. Faster and flatter by a large margin. Better in anything but the lighter stuff. The difference was a great deal more than I thought.

Thread drift, but I posted extensively about my experiences with a blade jib, similar to yours, which I started using four years ago instead of the standard 120% yankee, and how astounded I was at how well it worked compared to the overlapping sail.

There are amazingly few circumstances where I get more power from the bigger sail, and amazingly, with the wind ahead of the beam, the power from the blade is equal even in very light wind. And yet the drag is far less and I can use the blade in up to about 30 knots of apparent wind without reefing.

When I had my new carbon sails made, I had a new carbon yankee made as well as the blade, and now deeply regret it -- I hardly use the $15 000 yankee which spends its days lying in its bag on the forecabin sole, in the way.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Are you serious?

Yep!

His sails look fine for the wind he's sailing in. I believe he's sailing/sculling it thru the Dismal Swamp now and it's been quite a while since anyone did that without an engine of some sort

You can make lots of changes to the existing system to get good trim.

Now of course, his sails are probably best suited for lighter breezes as compared to a boat with new sails, but he's making it work

My first beach cat was a rental with blown out sails. It would beat all other Hobie 16's on the lake in light winds. We raced one design only at on that TVA Lake in Mississippi

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thread drift, but I posted extensively about my experiences with a blade jib, similar to yours, which I started using four years ago instead of the standard 120% yankee, and how astounded I was at how well it worked compared to the overlapping sail.

There are amazingly few circumstances where I get more power from the bigger sail, and amazingly, with the wind ahead of the beam, the power from the blade is equal even in very light wind. And yet the drag is far less and I can use the blade in up to about 30 knots of apparent wind without reefing.

When I had my new carbon sails made, I had a new carbon yankee made as well as the blade, and now deeply regret it -- I hardly use the $15 000 yankee which spends its days lying in its bag on the forecabin sole, in the way.

I had a new genoa made, I also regret it. I'm following your lead in other areas such as twings, that's how impressed I was with the performance and comfort increases.... what's happening to me... . Lol, at this rate I'll become a sailor someday.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

... . Lol, at this rate I'll become a sailor someday.

Ha, ha. I tell myself that at least once a month

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As Dale Tournier explained, it's not just about an extra knot or two. But you may be right -- this boat has a 300hp diesel and bunkers a couple of tonnes of gasoil. It should be possible to motor that beast, with her elegantly fine hull (only 17 feet of beam, only a foot more than my boat) in any conditions. Maybe that's a clue. I would LOVE to have that kind of motoring capability, but not at the expense of sailing ability.

it's not a motor sailer!
but as you see, 64 feet with inmast furling and you don't need a traveller.
i think the big oysters and wallys have this concept too.
let's just accept this fact and not try to make out the hr64 is a motorsailer.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yep!

His sails look fine for the wind he's sailing in. I believe he's sailing/sculling it thru the Dismal Swamp now and it's been quite a while since anyone did that without an engine of some sort

You can make lots of changes to the existing system to get good trim.

Now of course, his sails are probably best suited for lighter breezes as compared to a boat with new sails, but he's making it work

My first beach cat was a rental with blown out sails. It would beat all other Hobie 16's on the lake in light winds. We raced one design only at on that TVA Lake in Mississippi

If this is your model for good sail trim, then we have pretty different points of view. He's got wrinkles in the luff of the jib, the draft of the jib is way too far back, and you can't really see anything about the reefed mainsail.

[Pete7]

I have been following this chap as a like minded grumpy old middle aged Englishman.

Anyway at the 6 minute point he explains that he has removed the main sheet track and replaced it with a pair of main sheets, one to each side of the yacht cockpit to give the control he wants but without the trip hazard of a traveller across the cockpit. An interesting solution perhaps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY-0xHZy3Wc