No Traveller

[billknny]

[QUOTE=TJ D;2545405]

Originally Posted by billknny

Getting back to the original question... there is one word I have not see mentioned at all in this discussion: twist. When you are trimming a mainsail there are two variables that are important, one is the angle of the sail, and the other is the twist.
QUOTE]

When we were talking about leech control, I think you can safely substitute 'twist' for that. That was what I meant, anyway. I'm sure DH did too.

Fair enough... they are two words for the same thing.

Doubly important for a in-mast furling main where leech tension has help to make up for the lack of battens.

[charliehows]

I've got travellers on the main and mizzen, never bothered using either. When the mizzen traveller wheels broke I just drilled thru the middle of the travel rail and stuck in a shackle for the mizzen sheet. The extra miniscule % of power you get from fiddling with all that stuff is easily outweighed by the 3 extra crates of beer stowed for the trip, as far as I'm concerned. Might be different if you're racing but any one who spoils a nice sail by trying to go fast isnt getting anywhere near my boat.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by charliehows

I've got travellers on the main and mizzen, never bothered using either. When the mizzen traveller wheels broke I just drilled thru the middle of the travel rail and stuck in a shackle for the mizzen sheet. The extra miniscule % of power you get from fiddling with all that stuff is easily outweighed by the 3 extra crates of beer stowed for the trip, as far as I'm concerned. Might be different if you're racing but any one who spoils a nice sail by trying to go fast isnt getting anywhere near my boat.

Probably true if you have an old baggy main. If you have a well shaped main then failing to take out the twist turns it into a poorly shaped sail. This then means the sail drives the boat sideways instead of forward. More leeway, more heel, more discomfort with no advantages. On a cruising boat making passages sail trim is as much about comfort as about speed. As DH has mentioned, you put up a Genoa and the boat heels and is uncomfortable. Put up a 100% jib and she stands up and is much more comfortable - at practically the same speed.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by billknny

Or you can run twin mainsheets one to each side, and have great control of the boom... or lots of other things but that wasn't the original question...

Yeah, I just went with the no traveller thing since a non- racing cruiser could have so many other things set improperly the details wouldn't matter

Everything has to be correct in a real race besides just the sail trim, and the faster the boat the more critical settings become as well as start positions etc

Nice 8' traveller on the beach cats and with the high angle they sail downwind these days you can sheet the main tight over the traveller

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rZUMkisjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M13BZiV6P2c

[billknny]

Originally Posted by charliehows

I've got travellers on the main and mizzen, never bothered using either. When the mizzen traveller wheels broke I just drilled thru the middle of the travel rail and stuck in a shackle for the mizzen sheet. The extra miniscule % of power you get from fiddling with all that stuff is easily outweighed by the 3 extra crates of beer stowed for the trip, as far as I'm concerned. Might be different if you're racing but any one who spoils a nice sail by trying to go fast isnt getting anywhere near my boat.

And get a couple blue tarps for sails and you can store an extra 5 case of beer.

[Jim Cate]

Might be different if you're racing but any one who spoils a nice sail by trying to go fast isnt getting anywhere near my boat.

With respect, if you are that lackadaisical about sailing, I have no desire to go sailing with you. Wouldn't be much fun...

Jim

[billknny]

Sail trim for cruisers can be about going fast, but where good sail trim REALLY matters is when you have to go upwind. I know, it is something all cruisers (me too!) avoid whenever possible, but it you are sailing from Florida to Antigua it's go upwind or don't go.

Many people who have the same model boat I do motorsail a LOT. This puzzled me for a long time, because I never motorsail and never saw the reason to. I began to understand after I talked with many of them. Turns out they haven't figured out how to make the boat go upwind. They struggle to get the boat pointed higher than 60 degrees to the true wind. I routinely do 50 degrees, even a few better than that in good conditions. Not something I'd be happy with in a J-105, but in loaded liveaboard cruising boat, it works.

When going to windward, the difference between 60 degrees and 50 degrees TWA is HUGE, and well worth the little bit of "fiddling" it takes to get there. And if you don't think so, or know how, you aren't coming anywhere near my boat (even if you bring the beer!)

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by billknny

.....
When going to windward, the difference between 60 degrees and 50 degrees TWA is HUGE, and well worth the little bit of "fiddling" it takes to get there. And if you don't think so, or know how, you aren't coming anywhere near my boat (even if you bring the beer!)

And in addition to being able to sail that high you have the option of then cracking off 5*. So you get much more speed and comfort, and you are still pointing higher than poorly trimmed and uncomfortably sailed boat.

[BlackHeron]

Our early HR-35 Rasmus also doesn't have a traveller. The vang is critical in getting decent sail shape, even though the sail is old and is no longer very efficient it's hard to depower it since it doesn't want to pull out the camber and twist can get out of control in a quick gust. Not having a traveller to blow the only way to depower in a hurry is to ease the main. Blowing it could be disasterous if the boom smacks up against the shroud.

The vang has its work cut out trying to keep up and I have noticed that the gooseneck is getting really beat up on the older Seldon "rolling" boom. Last year I ran the vang back to near the cockpit so we can reach out the middle opening window of the hard dodger to operate it instead of going up to the mast. Now we have been using the vang much more and it does help a lot, but the gooseneck is taking even more abuse. This winter off-season I'm going to upgrade it to something more solid and beefy.

It's a cruising boat and not a race boat. But we like to trim sails so they are efficient and sail in heavier weather without needing to reef too early, yet still deal with the occasional gust.

Adding a traveller would really be nice but the cost and the disruption of it being in the way of the aft companionway hatch as well as interfering with the permanently-installed but shortened emergency-tiller handle (used in conjunction with the Monitor self-steering autopilot) would just be too much of a pain to retrofit.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Adding a traveller would really be nice but the cost and the disruption of it being in the way of the aft companionway hatch as well as interfering with the permanently-installed but shortened emergency-tiller handle (used in conjunction with the Monitor self-steering autopilot) would just be too much of a pain to retrofit.

You might consider running a pair of vangs from each rail to the boom. It will save the compression load that is destroying your gooseneck, and is easy to work from the cockpit.

It's not a new idea, but it still works a treat and lets you put the boom exactly where you want it.

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by billknny

You might consider running a pair of vangs from each rail to the boom. It will save the compression load that is destroying your gooseneck, and is easy to work from the cockpit.

It's not a new idea, but it still works a treat and lets you put the boom exactly where you want it.

I was thinking of adding a 6:1 tackle from the boom bludgeon (where the mainsheet attaches) with a snap shackle on the bottom end to connect temporarily to either side of the cabin top where the two ends of the V-shaped mainsheet normally connect. Using this setup I could connect a new "mainsheet" either on the high or low side and work against the existing tackle in the sheet to balance it. The problem with this is now there are two things to ease in a bad blow which might contribute to a preventable knockdown when just the main could have been blown.

But in lighter & safer air, when reaching very close to the wind, this might help us make 5 or maybe even 10-degrees more into the wind for going upwind -something our boat has problems with due to the shoal keel sometimes, and excessive leeway if we start heeling more than 15-20 degrees. Getting that darn boom to the high side would really help. Pulling it down to the low side in heavier air might be a little dangerous, although we could just use the low-side connection as the sole sheet and ease the primary sheet and leave it out of the cam cleat entirely.

It's perhaps a workable idea.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Probably true if you have an old baggy main. If you have a well shaped main then failing to take out the twist turns it into a poorly shaped sail. This then means the sail drives the boat sideways instead of forward. More leeway, more heel, more discomfort with no advantages. On a cruising boat making passages sail trim is as much about comfort as about speed. As DH has mentioned, you put up a Genoa and the boat heels and is uncomfortable. Put up a 100% jib and she stands up and is much more comfortable - at practically the same speed.

Yes Paul well summarised. Maybe not all have experienced the differences? But they are significant.
Maybe some boats aren't as easy to use regarding shaping sail? thus people don't go to the effort? My traveller is very simple there's just no reason not to use it.
If adjustments are quick and simple and the result is more comfortable, faster and less load on the boat it seems like a no brainer.

[poiu]

I have a traveller. I use it, but don't really see the value of it that much. It only allows a few feet of adjustment either side of the centreline, so once you are reaching and especially broad reaching it isn't really doing much anyway as you mostly rely on the vang for leech control. If you are using the vang a lot of the time, you may as well do it all the time and this I think is the reason why a lot of boats have abandoned the traveller.

It's also a lot easier to trim the main sheet than the traveler, which doesn't run anywhere near so free on mine, plus there is no powered trim on.

I asked Oyster why they don't have one on their newer models and they essentially confirmed all this. I'll bet they liked the cost saving too.

One major attraction of the traveller is I can very easily park my main sheet to one side and out of the way.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by poiu

I have a traveller. I use it, but don't really see the value of it that much. It only allows a few feet of adjustment either side of the centreline, so once you are reaching and especially broad reaching it isn't really doing much anyway as you mostly rely on the vang for leech control. If you are using the vang a lot of the time, you may as well do it all the time and this I think is the reason why a lot of boats have abandoned the traveller.

It's also a lot easier to trim the main sheet than the traveler, which doesn't run anywhere near so free on mine, plus there is no powered trim on.

I asked Oyster why they don't have one on their newer models and they essentially confirmed all this. I'll bet they liked the cost saving too.

One major attraction of the traveller is I can very easily park my main sheet to one side and out of the way.

yep, as I said in my earlier post, a "4 part barber hauler" puts a normal traveler to shame for sail steadying and adjustment... AND if your boat has a dodger, as most cruising boats do, it is easier to use than a cabin top traveler.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by thomm225

My boat doesn't have a traveler or a vang and I can trim the main quiet easily especially since I'm just cruising the boat. It has a double block on the boom and a single on each side of the boat. One with a cam cleat. That's it

My racing boats, beach cats (4) , had the standard 7'-8' Traveler which did make things nice especially with spinnaker because the downwind angle was much higher (than non-spin boats) and the main was sheeted quite tight (at least in stronger winds) right above the traveler

Your boat does have a traveller, but to get the boom to near center you will have a tighter leech. I believe this is called a Crosby rig and I've seen it on old Lightnings and Cal 20s. I've read Crosby originally put this on Snipes.

How it works is you sheet in. The boom will be about over the leeward block. Grab the boom with your hand and pull it up to the centerline. While holding it on the centerline, sheet in some more. The boom will remain close to the centerline.

Why it works is that the perimeter of a right triangle is longer than an isosceles triangle with the same altitude. Height of the boom isn't going to change much, so the altitude of the mainsheet triangles remains close to the same. So when you pull the boom to the centerline and sheet in some more the boom can't move back out to leeward.

Anyway that's how I was taught on a Lightning in the 70's, and it worked.