No Traveller

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sorry but I find ridiculous that thing about the Swan 60 or 65 not to be suitable for sailing in ocean conditions.

You mix comfort with suitability and mix different types of boats. The Swan 60 is an offshore crusiser racer, a very sportive boat designed for racing or to be sailed by very sportive sailors that don't mind to cruise sailing the same way racers race in what regards spartan conditions (and the fun too).

It seems you mix what you like in what regards sailing with what all sailors like on that particular.

If we were talking about land veicules you would be saying that motorcycles are unsuitable for long range travel because they do not offer protection to rain wind or dust...and there are many that like to do long voyages in motorcycle, including me.

Regarding the Swan 65 it is not a cruiser racer, a high performance boat like the Swan 60, but a fast yacht to sail and live in style, a bluewater modern cruiser.

While the swan 60 is advertised by Swan as: "The Swan 60 FD was conceived to meet a growing demand for a model engineered for performance, comfort and style. This performance orientated Swan boasts high stability, direct steering system, foils, carbon fibre spar package, and easy handling results in a light, responsive yacht."

About the Swan 65 the designer German Frers say: "This new design was created practically simultaneously with the Swan 78 as a complement to the larger sister of the new bluewater line of yachts.

... Her medium light displacement hull is powerful and beamy giving very good form stability and a nice motion at sea. The hull shape ... has been optimized for fast all around performance in light to medium wind ranges within a modern wide stern envelope. ...

She will be a fun boat to own and sail the waters of the world.. She is modern but at the same time we have strived to conserve her softness and harmony of the earlier relatives avoiding hard unruly behaviour.

The same could be said of the deck with its modern design, uncluttered surfaces and straightforward, simple solutions to sail handling and life at sea."

Germán Frers

That picture I posted with the boat viewed from the stern gives not a good idea of the boat. This one is better at that:

What's that pink and blue thing in the cockpit ? Part of the entertainment system maybe ?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Unless you have a flat deck boat for a full width traveller, the traveller on most cruising boats isn't worth much any way. It's not wide enough to do much. Especially since the car and etc leave it maybe 6" from the end of the traveller.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's quite true. I often compare the size and width of travelers on similar sized Beneteaus compared to my boat and most other Catalinas. The track on B's is half the size/thickness of mine, and the width is only the narrow width of the companionway, not the width of the entire cabin as on my boat.

That's a choice of the designer and the buyers.

I like mine. I use it as richr and Dockhead describe.

I agree that if the traveler is there but incorrectly sized and/or placed, it might as well be useless, or only a little bit more helpful than none at all.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by savoir

What's that pink and blue thing in the cockpit ? Part of the entertainment system maybe ?

They are attracted by this type of yachts. They know that the men that have them have god taste....and money LOL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sorry but I find ridiculous that thing about the Swan 60 or 65 not to be suitable for sailing in ocean conditions.

You mix comfort with suitability and mix different types of boats. The Swan 60 is an offshore crusiser racer, a very sportive boat designed for racing or to be sailed by very sportive sailors that don't mind to cruise sailing the same way racers race in what regards spartan conditions (and the fun too).

It seems you mix what you like in what regards sailing with what all sailors like on that particular.

If we were talking about land veicules you would be saying that motorcycles are unsuitable for long range travel because they do not offer protection to rain wind or dust...and there are many that like to do long voyages in motorcycle, including me.

Regarding the Swan 65 it is not a cruiser racer, a high performance boat like the Swan 60, but a fast yacht to sail and live in style, a bluewater modern cruiser.

While the swan 60 is advertised by Swan as: "The Swan 60 FD was conceived to meet a growing demand for a model engineered for performance, comfort and style. This performance orientated Swan boasts high stability, direct steering system, foils, carbon fibre spar package, and easy handling results in a light, responsive yacht."

About the Swan 65 the designer German Frers say: "This new design was created practically simultaneously with the Swan 78 as a complement to the larger sister of the new bluewater line of yachts.

... Her medium light displacement hull is powerful and beamy giving very good form stability and a nice motion at sea. The hull shape ... has been optimized for fast all around performance in light to medium wind ranges within a modern wide stern envelope. ...

She will be a fun boat to own and sail the waters of the world.. She is modern but at the same time we have strived to conserve her softness and harmony of the earlier relatives avoiding hard unruly behaviour.

The same could be said of the deck with its modern design, uncluttered surfaces and straightforward, simple solutions to sail handling and life at sea."

Germán Frers

That picture I posted with the boat viewed from the stern gives not a good idea of the boat. This one is better at that:

Of course, Paolo, if the advertising blurb says it's so, then it must be so Forget experience -- life is a glossy magazine

Do sail a boat with a deck like that in rough weather, or, scratch that, sail on one at all, and let us know if you still feel this way . . . Just make sure and clip on


Getting back to the topic of the thread --

I did realize, I think, how trimming the mainsail on the HR64 is supposed to work --

The massive hydraulic vang does not only put on leech tension in lieu of the mainsheet -- it also FIXES THE BOOM IN PLACE vertically. So hardening the mainsheet will NOT tension the leech of the mainsail.

I think that's the answer. I should have remembered this from my day on the Swan 60 -- we did not indeed fiddle with the vang to correct leech tension once it was set.

So I think this will work better than I thought -- at least as long as you don't need the boom close to the centerline (or God forbid, above it). You just need a truly massive boom and truly massive hydraulic vang. And you will need the handy billy for sailing upwind in light conditions or maybe for sailing efficiently upwind at all, since the mainsheet alone will hardly be able to even center the boom.

Seems a stiff price to pay for a cleaner deck, a price I would definitely not be willing to pay. Still, I very much like the hydraulic vang and the reduction of fiddling you'd get from that. I guess the ideal setup for me on a larger boat would be to indeed have the strong boom and hydraulic vang, but add a long, powered traveler -- some kind of electrically or hydraulically driven worm and nut mechanism which could also be cranked by hand if necessary. I wonder if anyone makes such a thing. I've seen hydraulic travelers based on long rams -- that seems unnecessarily complex to me, and does not have a manual backup.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Polux

They are attracted by this type of yachts. They know that the men that have them have god taste....and money LOL

One thing is for sure, my boat didn't come with one. I would have remembered.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

guess the ideal setup for me on a larger boat would be to indeed have the strong boom and hydraulic vang, but add a long, powered traveler -- some kind of electrically or hydraulically driven worm and nut mechanism which could also be cranked by hand if necessary. I wonder if anyone makes such a thing. I've seen hydraulic travelers based on long rams -- that seems unnecessarily complex to me, and does not have a manual backup.

I have seen one using two powered little winches, one either side. Simple, reliable and with manual back up.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

I have seen one using two powered little winches, one either side. Simple, reliable and with manual back up.

Well, my boat has two manual winches dedicated to the traveler, and with the traveler just behind the helm position, this is not too bad. The traveler is long, however, and you have to go back and forth between the two winches releasing one control line and winching the other. On a bigger boat this dance would be worse. Making the winches powered would make it easier to crank the traveler up, but wouldn't change the dancing back and forth. Maybe there is some way to do it with a single central winch . . . . well, why not -- just lead the control lines over one more block to a central position, and put clutches on the ends of them to hold they lazy one. That would probably even be cheaper than two winches like what I have now.

This would be more cluttered than a hydraulic or electric actuator, but should be cheaper and easier to fix. Hmmm.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Of course, Paolo, if the advertising blurb says it's so, then it must be so Forget experience -- life is a glossy magazine

So now the words and assessment about a sailboat by one of the best and more respected Naval Architects (German Frers, the designer of almost all Halberg Rassy) is advertising blur

[Flextron]

You have a very lovely boat but like all boats it is a compromise. Your set up it cruiser orientated. Comfortable well appointed and relatively simple rig. I have a back stay, running back stays, mainsheet, traveler and a further fine tune on the main sheet. I have a Cunningham rigged and position markers on all my lines and cars and a log book of all settings at all wind speeds and sail combinations. Spectra or dimena lines and carbon sails. It all matters and every item is speed orientated. However, it’s a living hell below. With multiple head sails and damp spinnakers heaped around the keel for best trim. So just enjoy your boat play with the adjustments you do have. Keep some notes so you can repeat success and enjoy learning her ways. You will still pass my now classic 34 foot IOR racer I will be wet and working hard you will have a gin and tonic on the go but we will both be smiling. That’s sailing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

So now the words and assessment about a sailboat by one of the best and more respected Naval Architects (German Frers, the designer of almost all Halberg Rassy) is advertising blur

Absolutely. Text about his own design, written for the specific purpose of advertising - puffing the product and generating sales. That's advertising blurb by definition.

German Frers is without doubt a great designer - and I've had the pleasure of sailing a few of his boats, including 1000 miles on one of his Swan 90s - but like all designers he designs what the client wants and what the client thinks he can sell to the market. He probably throws in the exciting advertising description for free, although that may not be so.

But I think you and I are in agreement about the principle design value of that Swan 65, you said it yourself - "They are attracted by this type of yachts. They know that the*men*that have them have good taste....and*money*LOL"

And I'm not saying anything against Frers or Nautor for building objects which are statements, or rather displays, of wealth and "good taste" - there is a market for that, no doubt bigger than the market for ocean sailing machines.

Which are very, very different things.

Originally Posted by Polux

So now the words and assessment about a sailboat by one of the best and more respected Naval Architects (German Frers, the designer of almost all Halberg Rassy) is advertising blur

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Flextron

You have a very lovely boat but like all boats it is a compromise. Your set up it cruiser orientated. Comfortable well appointed and relatively simple rig. I have a back stay, running back stays, mainsheet, traveler and a further fine tune on the main sheet. I have a Cunningham rigged and position markers on all my lines and cars and a log book of all settings at all wind speeds and sail combinations. Spectra or dimena lines and carbon sails. It all matters and every item is speed orientated. However, it’s a living hell below. With multiple head sails and damp spinnakers heaped around the keel for best trim. So just enjoy your boat play with the adjustments you do have. Keep some notes so you can repeat success and enjoy learning her ways. You will still pass my now classic 34 foot IOR racer I will be wet and working hard you will have a gin and tonic on the go but we will both be smiling. That’s sailing.

Well, I don't have an HR64. I thought seriously about buying one, but I've decided to custom build.

Your boat is a lot more my style

My next boat, although it will cost me quite a bit more than just buying a production boat like the HR 64, will NOT be a display of wealth and "good taste". She will have raw aluminum topsides and deck and will look like a work boat. Unlike a Wally or a Swan 65, she will be no good whatsoever for picking up babes!! . But she WILL have a traveler!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe there is some way to do it with a single central winch . . . . well, why not -- just lead the control lines over one more block to a central position, and put clutches on the ends of them to hold they lazy one. That would probably even be cheaper than two winches like what I have now.

This would be more cluttered than a hydraulic or electric actuator, but should be cheaper and easier to fix. Hmmm.

Harken makes a traveler where you don't have to release the downwind side, sorry, I forgot the name.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe there is some way to do it with a single central winch . . . . well, why not -- just lead the control lines over one more block to a central position, and put clutches on the ends of them to hold they lazy one. That would probably even be cheaper than two winches like what I have now.

This would be more cluttered than a hydraulic or electric actuator, but should be cheaper and easier to fix. Hmmm.

That's exactly how the traveller is rigged on my Belize.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Absolutely. Text about his own design, written for the specific purpose of advertising - puffing the product and generating sales. That's advertising blurb by definition.

German Frers is without doubt a great designer - and I've had the pleasure of sailing a few of his boats, including 1000 miles on one of his Swan 90s - but like all designers he designs what the client wants and what the client thinks he can sell to the market. He probably throws in the exciting advertising description for free, although that may not be so.

But I think you and I are in agreement about the principle design value of that Swan 65, you said it yourself - "They are attracted by this type of yachts. They know that the*men*that have them have good taste....and*money*LOL"
....

I don't understand you. It is that hard to understand that all don't like to sail and cruise the same types of boats you think that are perfect (for you)?

It is that hard to understand that somebody likes more to travel on a Ferrari on a Porsche or on a powerful motorcycle than on a high end Mercedes...even if the Mercedes is more comfortable and practical?

What defines a boat suitable for sailing oceans is the ability the boat has to face those conditions and sail, not the comfort that the sailors that own and sail it have while they are doing it. The parallel between the Ferrari or a high power motorcycle and the Mercedes is a valid one.

There is dificult to find a boat more seaworthy and able to face ocean conditions than a Swan 65, a medium light weight boat designed with that in mind. Saying as you said that the Swan 65 is "not suitable for sailing in ocean conditions" makes no sense at all and you should know it.

Saying that a high respectable naval architect like German Frers, a relatively conservative one, is stating ******** and lying while he describes the characteristics of one of their designs is....well, at least deselegante and as meaningless as stating that a Swan 65 is not suitable for ocean sailing.

What he says about the yacht seems to me a good description of the boat characteristics, one that I could have made if I was reviewing the boat and of course he knows that boat and his characteristics much better than me.

He says that it complements a "bluewater line of yachts... that.. her medium light displacement hull is powerful and beamy giving very good form stability and a nice motion at sea.. that..she will be a fun boat to own and sail the waters of the world."

and please, let's talk about travelers.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

That's exactly how the traveller is rigged on my Belize.

Lovely! More photos?