Preventer Rigging?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Strait Shooter

Seeking clarity here........

Can a boom brake serve just as adequately as a preventer system?

Are any boats rigged both ways? And why, or why not?

Only if your boom brake is not of the slow-me-down type and if your boom is either short or well above the water level when the boat is heeled 50 degrees and the wave is 7 meters high. +smiley!

So to say one can go with a brake alone but in open water conditions and in rough going you will have a preventer rigged unless racing.

No problem to go with both.

All this is IMHO as the definitions and functions of a boom brake device vary considerably.

b.

[barnakiel]

As for keeping both preventers rigged, this is quite easy. We simply hang up the whole rig with bungee. The bungee long enough to stretch all the way for the working preventer to set, this keeps the stand-by one snug. Think of how runners are rigged, trapezes on skiffs, etc. - apply the rule, done.

b.

[Matt Johnson]

The brake can be tightened down to prevent the boom from moving in 99% of situations. If you were to dip the boom, there is give enough to allow the boom to move.... Like having a fuse in a preventer.

Keep in mind that we used a walder on a main of about 250 sqft. I'm not sure how or if it would work on a 54' boat in the same fashion.

Matt

Sent from my LG-V410 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

As for keeping both preventers rigged, this is quite easy. We simply hang up the whole rig with bungee. The bungee long enough to stretch all the way for the working preventer to set, this keeps the stand-by one snug. Think of how runners are rigged, trapezes on skiffs, etc. - apply the rule, done.

b.

I'm not seeing it, nor have I experienced it. Here's why:
A Preventer is setup on the leeward side, where you can have half a dozen other various lines leading from the cockpit, to forward of the mast. Especially including a number of headsail sheets. Which, as the wind angle changes, so does the; angle & location of the headsail sheets, & the angle & location of the Preventer.
Not to mention Runners, & possibly a couple of other lines, even including the mainsheet.

So, that at a number of wind angles & wind strengths, these lines will be in position to either; interfere with the preventer entirely, & or chafe heavily on the preventer. Unless one or several lines are disconnected, & subsequently reattached. After removing the "interference fit" between them.

[Strait Shooter]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

What has you spooked about gybing with end boom sheeting? Also, if I might ask, how's your mainsheet setup?
If you're stuck, descriptiveness wise, this may help Harken

Not really spooked, just cautious and sure of my actions. As stated, I've never even had a preventer before, or a brake.

Here's my main sheet set up. What are your thoughts?



I'm still not getting the permanent attaching concept at all.
I've got some sketches I've been working on as a layout, but can't scan them tonight.

Anyone have a sketch or a pic?

And no, not everyone is a wiz at making soft shackles.........yet...

[Strait Shooter]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Only if your boom brake is not of the slow-me-down type and if your boom is either short or well above the water level when the boat is heeled 50 degrees and the wave is 7 meters high. +smiley!

So to say one can go with a brake alone but in open water conditions and in rough going you will have a preventer rigged unless racing.

No problem to go with both.

All this is IMHO as the definitions and functions of a boom brake device vary considerably.

b.

Hehehe, nope...long ass boom.

Alright, I've got it.....that's as I thought, but got thrown by someone's comment and wanted some clarification, thanks guys.

I'm not as worried about accidental gybes as I am light winds and a slatting (is that the right term?) sail.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I'm not seeing it, nor have I experienced it. Here's why:
A Preventer is setup on the leeward side, where you can have half a dozen other various lines leading from the cockpit, to forward of the mast. Especially including a number of headsail sheets. Which, as the wind angle changes, so does the; angle & location of the headsail sheets, & the angle & location of the Preventer.
Not to mention Runners, & possibly a couple of other lines, even including the mainsheet.

So, that at a number of wind angles & wind strengths, these lines will be in position to either; interfere with the preventer entirely, & or chafe heavily on the preventer. Unless one or several lines are disconnected, & subsequently reattached. After removing the "interference fit" between them.

The only 'interference fit" we ever had was with the code zero sheet, when we moved its sheet block from deep to close reach. In that case we uncliped the preventer from its boom lead and reclipped the other side - took a few seconds, no problem.

Hey Uncivilized - when someone says they do something . . . and you 'don't see it' . . . . then probably your practice and your deck layout is quite different than theirs . . . and perhaps not necessarily better. You might try to understand WHY they can do it and you cannot before dismissing it. There are a whole lot of different ways to go sailing, and a bunch of compromises.

Regarding brakes and preventers - another set of trade-offs and copromises . . . . brake's big benefit is a softer jibe at the cost of some extra gear and some fixed lines across the deck. One of Beth's big hot buttons was as few trip hazards as possible on the deck so she was not a big fan of the brakes (yes you can work to minimize this depending on coach room design and deck layout).

I don't know how many other people do . . .but we sailed by the lee not infrequently. . . .when the wind was oscillating and we thought it would shift back, or when trying to squeeze say around a corner. In theory both devices can help prevent a jibe, but in practice on our boat, the preventer seemed the better solution for us - in part because with our 750 sq ft mainsail we were on the upper working end of most brakes.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

]

With your setup, are there not times when some of the following lines start competing for the same Real Estate. IE: Necessitate re-rigging a preventer, & or one or more other lines, so that they aren't chafing on each other (oh, & P/S means Port/Starboard)

Code 0/Spinnaker Furling Line
Jib Furling Line
Jib Sheet #1 P/S
Jib Sheet #2 P/S (to achieve optimum lead angles)
Staysail, or Solent Sheet P/S
Jib Twings P/S (AKA Barber Haulers)
Afterguy P/S
Spin Sheet #1 P/S
Spin Sheet #2 P/S (Alternatively, Reachers, Code 0's, etc.), & or Changing Sheet
Spin Sheet Twing P/S (AKA Barber Haulers)
Running Backs/Checks Stays – P/S
Main Sheet (P/S)

We are a cruising boat not a racing boat. We have 5 sails (Genoa, staysail, main, asymmetrical, and storm staysail). We have adjustable jib tracks for both foresail and staysail. The asymmetrical has its clew at the bowsprit. When all sheets and twings are rigged there is no interference with the preventers. We have all control lines (except asymmetrical) including preventers rigged when sailing.

The preventers run from deck mounted pad eyes to a block at the boom. The angle at the boom and deck is about 90 degrees to the boat's center line. When the boom is centered it is about 2.5M from preventer block boom attachment to pad eye turning block. When boom is "prevented" the leeward preventer is only about .75M to the pad eye and the windward preventer extends to about 4M reaching across the cabin top. The boom can move very little and neither preventer can interfere with any control lines. Staysail sheets (used rarely in this case) are always rigged and run perpendicular to and under each preventer. The foresail and asymmetrical sheets run outboard of everything including shrouds. We can jibe all sails without interference.

If we ran the preventer from boom end to a block or cleat near the bow the angle at the boom would be much smaller putting higher loads on the gooseneck and the lines would probably interfere with other control lines. Our preventer system puts almost no pressure on the gooseneck and can be set or released from the cockpit. I do not believe our system would interfere with control lines on even a racing boat but I have little racing experience.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I'm not seeing it, nor have I experienced it. Here's why:
A Preventer is setup on the leeward side, where you can have half a dozen other various lines leading from the cockpit, to forward of the mast. Especially including a number of headsail sheets. Which, as the wind angle changes, so does the; angle & location of the headsail sheets, & the angle & location of the Preventer.
Not to mention Runners, & possibly a couple of other lines, even including the mainsheet.

So, that at a number of wind angles & wind strengths, these lines will be in position to either; interfere with the preventer entirely, & or chafe heavily on the preventer. Unless one or several lines are disconnected, & subsequently reattached. After removing the "interference fit" between them.

Yes. I can see your point. The difference is in how we use preventers: I only rig ours running and, occasionally, broad reaching (when the sea is rough). There may also be a difference in where our main booms are sheeted and prevented.

Running, there is basically only one setup for us - the preventer outside and the genoa jib ... on the opposite side! No interference. The genoa or jib are blanketed by the main and so they will be either furled or winged out to windward.

When the kite is up (we are a genaker boat) and we go broad reaching the main is trimmed in (I think roughly 45 degs to center) and the kite sheet passes under the main boom and under our main sheet (our main is boom end sheeted). If I were to gybe, the kite can stay as is, nothing interferes, nothing tangles.

When there are numerous lines (eg. jib and kite at once) this implies we are on another boat, racing. I do not use preventer nor boom brakes racing. At times we have a crash gybe. At times we brake things (mostly battens) but with a preventer gybing her at wish would not be an option.

So if you envision a three sail boat with the main boom sheeted and prevented at the end, you can possibly see a very clear picture of how we can sail, prevented, hassle free.

b.

[Kenomac]

Dockhead,

Would you be able to rig a Duchman boom brake on your boat? It's a much better system, one that I've tried to rig three times on our current boat, but I can't rig it in a way where it doesn't conflict with the main sheet system. It worked beautifully on the Hunter.

Send me a picture of your boom and main sheet set up, and I'll tell you if it can work on your boat.

Ken

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dockhead,

Would you be able to rig a Duchman boom brake on your boat? It's a much better system, one that I've tried to rig three times on our current boat, but I can't rig it in a way where it doesn't conflict with the main sheet system. It worked beautifully on the Hunter.

Send me a picture of your boom and main sheet set up, and I'll tell you if it can work on your boat.

Ken

Thanks, Ken. I'm on the boat now and will make a photo tomorrow.

[estarzinger]

^^ I would have guessed that their biggest unit was marginal for DH's mainsail -
"BB 750 Boom Brake max main 750 sq ft"

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ I would have guessed that their biggest unit was marginal for DH's mainsail -
"BB 750 Boom Brake max main 750 sq ft"

The Duchman boom brake is extremely overbuilt, I'd have no issue installing it on our Oyster if I could. In fact, even today I was looking at pictures of the main sheet system, trying to figure out a way. The problem is with the large boom brake triangle chafing the main sheet where it exits the boom.

Off to the boat show today, where I'll also look for a double block which might solve the issue.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Guys, thanks for the clarification on the preventers thing. And my apoligies for the way in which I worded things. Putting you on the spot like that wasn't the most gentlemanly thing to do. - So, yeah, with regards to manners & decorum, perhaps I "stepped on my meat with golf shoes", a bit.

The reason for my question(s) stems from having spent most of my sailing time, on boats with several miles of spaghetti on deck all of the time. From racer pigs, to square riggers.
So paying attention to what line goes where, when, & why, is hard wired into me.