Pros Aloft Without A Safety Line

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by billknny

He STILL can't work on my boat that way... no matter how famous he is.

Every boat owner has the right to dictate how the work will be performed on their vessel.

Similarly, every professional marine contractor has the right to decline the work, because the owner is attempting to dictate how the work will be performed, that the contractor is responsible for.

That said, I normally use a rope ladder of my design and fabrication, hoisted by the halyard that I have previously inspected. When I ascend to the working height, I clip my harness onto something suitable, so I can work with both hands.

I am totally self reliant, and the owner that I have told to stay off the boat, does, or I come down and walk away.

Too many times, I've had a "helpful" owner, offer to operate a safety line, only to have them lose interest and step across the boat to do something (e.g. "needed to get my smokes") and meanwhile, I'm clinging for dear life as the top of the mast is swaying to and fro 10 feet in either direction.

If I hit the deck, I want it to be due to my own stupidity, not someone else's, who certainly doesn't have nearly the stake in it that I do.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Every boat owner has the right to dictate how the work will be performed on their vessel.

.......

Too many times, I've had a "helpful" owner, offer to operate a safety line, only to have them lose interest and step across the boat to do something (e.g. "needed to get my smokes") and meanwhile, I'm clinging for dear life as the top of the mast is swaying to and fro 10 feet in either direction.

If I hit the deck, I want it to be due to my own stupidity, not someone else's, who certainly doesn't have nearly the stake in it that I do.

The only thing dumber than not having a safety line is putting your safety in the hands of an untrained, and unknown, third party. By saying that you have done that, I know all I need to know about your judgement.

Yes, that means a rigging job done safely and to the standards I enforce on my boat (and in my shop, when I ran one) ALWAYS took at least two people.

Everybody is free to do things their own way, of course. But the OP's comment that ALL professional riggers ignore the use of safety lines is just NOT true. Only the stupid ones.

[mowerandy]

Thanks Rapanui - I hadn't thought of taking that extra turn around the mast, and must admit to being nervous of the potential effects of being arrested in freefall by next set of spreaders :-)
I usually climb (tho becoming progressively more of a struggle in my dotage) with the deck dude taking up the slack on the main halyard, and a mast strop/tether. Not too worried about disconnecting and reconnecting at each spreader, since that is all that is happening at that point, so little chance of shock-loading or winch failure in those few seconds.
More of a worry for me is that the brake on my main winch is very snatchy, which could shock-load the halyard and its swages. Consequently there is usually a bit of testing before I go aloft proper - ie; shock-loading the thing at low altitude a couple of times, and then taking great care to brake gently on the way back down...

[Wotname]

DH, any idea of the relevant work place safety laws (if any) in your neck of the woods?

I would be wary of any professional worker who did not comply with whatever workplace safety laws are in existence. If none, then I would let them do the work as they see fit.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The second line is a PITA because you need a third person to manage it. I can well imagine that this is the main reason the pros don't use it. Cost and manpower issue.

It's a problem for me, too. There are often times when I want to go aloft but don't have enough people.

I've been thinking about using a Prussik on a static halyard for the safety line, so that I can go up with a single helper. Or perhaps ascenders and descenders or some such climbing hardware would work for that.

Going aloft scares me. It's thrilling in its own way, but I have to admit that it frightens me. I need to work on my technique I think, and I need some kind of foot loops to get up above the masthead level.

Yep, definitely use an ascender clipped to your bosun's chair or climbing harness, on a second fixed and tensioned halyard. Going up it slides easily. Down is a bit more difficult as it tends to catch a bit, and it takes some practice getting the correct angle to hold it against the safety line. But if the handler of your main hoist makes a mistake, you will drop quickly and the ascender will stop your fall.

For that safety halyard, I use an actual climbing rope hoisted to top of mast using spare halyard. The climbing rope is very stretchy so you won't be injured by a sudden stop if that does happen. You can buy the standard 200' climbing rope used, in very excellent condition for pennies on the dollar since those crazy rock guys only want to use it one season or less. My only problem with this is that rope looks so nice but is is a big coil and I only need 1/4 of it, but simply can't bring myself to cut it shorter!

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The second line is a PITA because you need a third person to manage it. I can well imagine that this is the main reason the pros don't use it. Cost and manpower issue.

It's a problem for me, too. There are often times when I want to go aloft but don't have enough people.

I've been thinking about using a Prussik on a static halyard for the safety line, so that I can go up with a single helper. Or perhaps ascenders and descenders or some such climbing hardware would work for that.

Going aloft scares me. It's thrilling in its own way, but I have to admit that it frightens me. I need to work on my technique I think, and I need some kind of foot loops to get up above the masthead level.

If you don't want to spend the big bucks for one of those mast track ladders, you can make yourself a set of foot loops that you would strap around the top of the mast, after you get up there. You also will need to use a big strong safety belt around your waist when standing up in those foot loops. This all works better with a climbing harness rather than a bosun's chair, since the harness stays attached to your waist when you stand up.

I think I feel the same way about going aloft. Thinking about it I try to go through all the motions of the job beforehand, and I get a bit nervous. But after I'm in the air I actually have a blast.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

While I personally use a safety line when going aloft my experience is similar in that by and large riggers don't bother with it. I guess the question is when was the last time you had a halyard break? I've done a ton of sailing over the years and I've never broken a halyard and why would you if you maintained your boat. What's a hundred plus pounds (European rigger) on a halyard designed to take several thousand pounds. I have heard of safety straps breaking when a sailor was tossed from one side of the deck to the other...how many of you wear 2 of those. I guess I don't think it's as big a deal as many are making it, probably very low risk.

There is no chance in hell the halyard would break, and I assume you forego the use of whatever shackle is on the end of it, and instead you always tie a bowline in the halyard, directly into your bosun's chair, harness or whatever.

But think what would happen if you were near top of the mast and suddenly your on-deck helper had any sort of problem. It could be he/she is just incompetent with the winch, or maybe there is a medical problem, maybe that person drank a little too much last night, whatever. It is especially dangerous during the descent. Far better to have an additional static safety line that you are attached to, with prussic knot or ascender, and on-deck helper has no responsibility for it.

[Snowpetrel]

Thanks for pointing this out Dockhead, I have noticed the same issue many times.

From my point of view as an occasional and one time professional rigger, and having training in working safely at heights and industrial rope rescue, Going up on one halyard without a separate safety line of some sort and a good rescue plan is pretty hard to justify these days with modern equipment such as simple stop-go's like this. https://www.heightsafetycentral.com....stop-go-device. Easily attached to its own halyard and a proper climbing harness as a completely independant and non intrusive safety system.

I had a friend fall from the top of a small mast and badly injure himself when his halyard broke. On a taller mast he quite likely would have died. A simple independent backup system like this would have caught him.

I also don't like the idea of using a safety lanyard clipped onto the mast as you go up. If you do have a fall it might stop you hitting the deck, but then you will be stuck aloft if injured until a rescue team can cut you down. If you are attached to a second halyard you can always be safely lowered to the deck.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by waterman46

If you don't want to spend the big bucks for one of those mast track ladders, you can make yourself a set of foot loops that you would strap around the top of the mast, after you get up there. You also will need to use a big strong safety belt around your waist when standing up in those foot loops. This all works better with a climbing harness rather than a bosun's chair, since the harness stays attached to your waist when you stand up.

I think I feel the same way about going aloft. Thinking about it I try to go through all the motions of the job beforehand, and I get a bit nervous. But after I'm in the air I actually have a blast.

Mast track ladder is a no go on a 23 meter mast (80 feet with antennas).

But I think the next time I have the mast out, I will put a couple of folding steps up there at the top. Meanwhile, I will need to figure out how to do those foot loops.

I do use climbing harness, always. Sometimes in combination with a bosun's chair.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Every boat owner has the right to dictate how the work will be performed on their vessel. . . . .

I do not dictate how pros do their jobs on my boat, including what concerns safety. That would defeat the whole purpose of hiring a pro. You either have confidence, or you don't. It's somewhat like going to the doctor. If you don't have confidence, the answer is not to dictate how the work will be done yourself, but rather to hire a different pro.

I'm in the Solent, where there is by far the greatest concentration of skilled marine trades and industries in the world. Half of the gear, or more, on all of our boats is either made or designed or both, in the Solent. Only three riggers have ever worked on my boat -- one was the former chief rigger at Moody, another was the team which rigs all Discoveries, and this guy, who not only rigs but designs the rigs for all Oysters. Who am I, to tell these guys how to do their jobs? I just watch and learn as much as I can, and do what they say.

[valhalla360]

I'm familiar with a parallel in road construction.

I used to spend a lot of time setting up maintenance of traffic schemes to keep cars and workers separated. Never had a worker hit on my projects but every year there are a few hit and it makes the rounds as far as what happens so we can avoid it in the future.

For the new guy when a semi blasts by 3' away at 70mph, he's ready for a new pair of shorts. He's constantly keeping an eye on traffic.

The "experienced" guys often wander within a foot of an open lane or worse steps into it for a few seconds to do something while paying no attention traffic. You pull them aside to reprimand them but they blow it off that they've done it for years.

The accidents I'm aware of have all been the "experienced" guys. I suspect it's the same with riggers. Most start as young athletic guys (ie: invincible) They've gotten away with it for years. It's not macho to use a safety line, so unless they have a near death experience...they just risk it.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Mast track ladder is a no go on a 23 meter mast (80 feet with antennas).

But I think the next time I have the mast out, I will put a couple of folding steps up there at the top. Meanwhile, I will need to figure out how to do those foot loops.

I do use climbing harness, always. Sometimes in combination with a bosun's chair.

Well I have climbed and worked aloft on the mast of a 62ftr.. mast steps all the way with the last two placed so one could stand and work comfortably with top of mast around waist high.. no safety line... that was in the marina.
Have done the same going through Ushant under motor to clear a jammed halyard on a 40ftr.. also mast steps and no line.
Just tied myself to the mast when I got up there to work.
The luxury of the perfect working conditions is not always available so best make sure you have the most stable means of ascent and descent..
Can tell few have experienced a bosuns chair at sea..

[double u]

having literally been up for weeks in my time, here how I used to do it:
no second halyard
inspect & test the one I was going to use with jumping up & letting myself fall into the b-chair 3 or 4 times as strongly as I could while still on deck, maybe secure it first & winch it as tight as possible to test it
climb up the forestay (best when sail is furled) by myself & have "tender" only tail the line
clutch closed if present (not on own vessel), 3 turns on drum ("tender" experienced guys or wife, taking care not to have riding turns) line NOT in selftailer
when working aloft with both hands: harness used & secured on masttop
descending:
2 turns on winch, fairly fast & fluid, not jery,
holding on to either mast or forestay/furled genoa
stay focussed! always grab something!
keep an eye on the "tender"
always worked like a charm
only anecdote I can contribute:
went up to the masthead of a fractional sloop, "tender" went to get a tool from our workshop (150m upwind) - got sidetracked by some ants & tackled them with the blowtorch - forgetting about me. I couldn't get out of the bosuns chair & climb down the forsail/stay because this was 2 or so m below me (fractional Bav 390) of course didn't want to holler so the whole marina notices what snafu the Austrians are having at their base. luckily my lady came back from some errant in town (we had our own boat on the same pontoon) saw me waving somewhat "unusually"& rescued me.
(but we had much less ants in the office & workshop after that day...)

[Dsanduril]

The last pro rigger we had up our mast, in his 50s, climbed the mast. He had an assistant on deck tailing on one of our halyards as a safety line but at no point was he suspended from the halyard. He climbed the whole 20m hand-over-hand with feet wrapped on shrouds. Once at the top (and other work levels) he strapped in with a tether and climbing harness. So, very much like rock climbing where he was trusting in his ability and only had safety backup.

I talked with him about it, he'd evaluate customer's halyards as a safety line and make up his mind, but he figured he'd never know about them entirely. You can't rig your own trusted line without getting to the top, so Catch-22. Rather than trust one unknown halyard to haul him up and another as a safety he trusted himself to climb, and trusted what he thought was our best piece of line as a safety. Don't think I'll ever have that ability but I saw him up and down half-a-dozen masts a day all the same way.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'm familiar with a parallel in road construction.

I used to spend a lot of time setting up maintenance of traffic schemes to keep cars and workers separated. Never had a worker hit on my projects but every year there are a few hit and it makes the rounds as far as what happens so we can avoid it in the future.

For the new guy when a semi blasts by 3' away at 70mph, he's ready for a new pair of shorts. He's constantly keeping an eye on traffic.

The "experienced" guys often wander within a foot of an open lane or worse steps into it for a few seconds to do something while paying no attention traffic. You pull them aside to reprimand them but they blow it off that they've done it for years.

The accidents I'm aware of have all been the "experienced" guys. I suspect it's the same with riggers. Most start as young athletic guys (ie: invincible) They've gotten away with it for years. It's not macho to use a safety line, so unless they have a near death experience...they just risk it.

I read a fascinating book on this subject a few months ago, The Killing Zone, by Paul Craig. It's about general aviation accidents -- a very deep study of the cause of them and correlation with experience and training of the pilots. It backs up what you say here -- beginners are cautious and have few accidents, but there is a big spike in accidents after the beginner stage and before the really experienced stage.

Our sport is not comparable to flying in terms of danger, but I found it extremely interesting the way they analyze and manage risks.