Pros Aloft Without A Safety Line

[Bill Seal]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

This is slightly higher than a mast, and he is free climbing.

I used to (sorta) do things like that, in fact that looks like one of our antennas. But being the devout coward that I am, I only went up in an elevator or load line/skip pan to supervise installation or test/tune, and always stayed clipped on.
Now days, even going up the 34' stick on our little ketch gives me sweaty palms.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Mast track ladder is a no go on a 23 meter mast (80 feet with antennas).

But I think the next time I have the mast out, I will put a couple of folding steps up there at the top. Meanwhile, I will need to figure out how to do those foot loops.

I do use climbing harness, always. Sometimes in combination with a bosun's chair.

Yes, I am thinking about a few folding steps up high also. The new boat has a modern bosuns chair. So no more standing up on the bosuns chair, as you could do on the old board type. Also, I am getting to old for this.

About extra halyard as safety, I can not see the point. Just complicates matters. Better make sure that the primary setup is correct and safe. For me the most important is to use one of the halyards with an integral sheave in the mast. If the sheave breaks, the halyard will still be there, and there is also no shackle that can be worn or become undone. I also bump test the halyard before ascending. While being winched up, the rope clutch is in the locked position, so even operator error can not result in a fall. On the way down, I normally hold on to some other halyard and lower myself hand over hand, alternatively using a prusik for securing, if conditions demand. So the guy on the winch is more for securing.

[roverhi]

Use a saftey line on a spare halyard wih a Prussik knot when I go up tne mast solo. Felt safe till I looked carefully at what would happen if the halyard I was using to climb failed. With only the Prussik knotted line on the safety line/2nd halyard holding me up, would have been stuck up the mast and would have to have emergency personnel get me down. At my age no way I'm climbing down the mast. Now I have a second line that I can rig with a Prussik to use as a foot sling so I could climb down. If you think getting stuck up the mast because of a gear failure or medical issue, have heard of that happening twice in the last year. Fortunately rescue personnel were able to get the guys down but only after the victims spent several hours hanging up the mast. This is probably only an issue with internal halyards where you couldn't tie on an extension line and lower the guy. Also wouldn't apply if you use a dedicated climbing line hoisted with a halyard. The dedicated climbing line doesn't work well if you want to work above the masthead. The knots to join the halyard and the climbing line leave you short of the height needed to get your head high enough to see what you are doing.

Tried

I go up the mast solo either with an ATN Mast Climber or climbing gear with ascender and GriGri. I've gone up once or twice without a safety line when there wasn't a spare halyard to use with a Prussik knotted line. Didn't want to but no other way to get aloft. Should have used a line around the mast but didn't.

When using Ascender and GriGri to climb, you have to disconnect the Ascender when you want to come down. With a safety line using a Prussik, forgetting to move the Prussik down as you come down means you have to reconnect the Ascender, use the foot sling to take the pressure off the Prussik, lower it, disconnect the ascender and continue on down. If you're forgetful like me, it's a real PITA descending. Not an excuse for not using a Prussik safety line but a reason that the riggers using mountain climbing gear might not use a safety line.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by roverhi

When using Ascender and GriGri to climb, you have to disconnect the Ascender when you want to come down. With a safety line using a Prussik, forgetting to move the Prussik down as you come down means you have to reconnect the Ascender, use the foot sling to take the pressure off the Prussik, lower it, disconnect the ascender and continue on down. If you're forgetful like me, it's a real PITA descending. Not an excuse for not using a Prussik safety line but a reason that the riggers using mountain climbing gear might not use a safety line.

Thats where the stop go works really well. It follows you up and down automatically, only locking if you fall too fast. It really takes hardly any time to set up and doesn't slow you down or restrict work at all. We used one all the time on its own safety line on our industrial rope rescue course.

Basic concept was a primary and secondary system, so if you primary is climbing the mast by hand, you only needed a single backup system, as your primary was your hands and feet and handholds. Same concept is used by kids to work aloft safely on the better square riggers I've worked on.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Thats where the stop go works really well. It follows you up and down automatically, only locking if you fall too fast. It really takes hardly any time to set up and doesn't slow you down or restrict work at all. We used one all the time on its own safety line on our industrial rope rescue course.

Basic concept was a primary and secondary system, so if you primary is climbing the mast by hand, you only needed a single backup system, as your primary was your hands and feet and handholds. Same concept is used by kids to work aloft safely on the better square riggers I've worked on.

Hot tip! Thanks for this.

[Montanan]

Today I received a timely email of an ezine article from Practical Sailor titled: Going Aloft Safely which I have provided a link thereto below for your reading regarding the subject matter.

Godspeed to y'all while sailing.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blo...s=p_Blog042618

[OrinocoFlo]

Originally Posted by double u

jtsailjt: please brand & model of intercom!!!

iPhone 6S TMobile

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by double u

jtsailjt: please brand & model of intercom!!!

The intercom system we use is an Eartec Simultalk that came with headsets that loop around the back of your head and power/receiver units about the size of a pack of cigarettes that goes in your pocket and 2 chargers and a carrying case to keep it all in. I (mis) remembered that we only paid about $150 but I just looked up the order in my Defender account and it was actually $250 via an ActiveCaptain deal of the week. Sorry to mislead. I don't see that brand on Defenders website any more but it's probably available elsewhere. Even at $250 or so I think it's a great value because they are easy to use and it really lowers the stress level so much when anchoring or working up the mast.

I'm sure they aren't designed to be dropped and that I was just very lucky but I managed to drop my receiver unit from halfway up my 70' mast and not only did it not fly into several pieces or crack in half or bounce into the water, it wasn't damaged at all. I couldn't even tell where it hit the deck and it still works fine. I was very surprised because they are just lightweight plastic looking and feeling things and I was sure I was going to have to buy a replacement when I noticed it falling. Now I make sure it's securely zipped into a pocket before leaving the deck.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Thats where the stop go works really well. It follows you up and down automatically, only locking if you fall too fast. It really takes hardly any time to set up and doesn't slow you down or restrict work at all. We used one all the time on its own safety line on our industrial rope rescue course.

Basic concept was a primary and secondary system, so if you primary is climbing the mast by hand, you only needed a single backup system, as your primary was your hands and feet and handholds. Same concept is used by kids to work aloft safely on the better square riggers I've worked on.

Hot tip! I had never heard of this, but some trawling revealed this:

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Tactical...st-device/ASAP

I will order one of these today -- a great leap forward, it seems to me, as you don't have to handle it unlike a Prussik. Using this on a static halyard would entirely eliminate one crew member required to get up safely. Thanks, SP!

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hot tip! I had never heard of this, but some trawling revealed this:

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Tactical...st-device/ASAP

I will order one of these today -- a great leap forward, it seems to me, as you don't have to handle it unlike a Prussik. Using this on a static halyard would entirely eliminate one crew member required to get up safely. Thanks, SP!

That looks like a great bit of kit. Far more sophisticated than the ones we used, and they would reduce the fall factor by a fair bit since they stay above the person and lock quickly.

The ones I have used looked more like these camp italy Goblin fall arrest devices.

https://youtu.be/J7INhhPpepI

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hot tip! I had never heard of this, but some trawling revealed this:

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Tactical...st-device/ASAP

I will order one of these today -- a great leap forward, it seems to me, as you don't have to handle it unlike a Prussik. Using this on a static halyard would entirely eliminate one crew member required to get up safely. Thanks, SP!

I've got one of those. I bought it some years ago, but I think there are better devices out there. The type that locks in position are safer as they minimise the fall distance. I see Petzl now do one, the ASAP Lock. A small fall of only the length of your harness lines can injure you badly, so it's a safety improvement plus if you have rope climbing equipment you can use it to take the load off the chest harness and give you more movement freedom. You may want to consider a fall arrest absorber too.

Back Up & Fall Arrest - Rope Access

https://www.abaris.co.uk/cat/back-up-devices

With ascenders, a chest harness and foot straps you can rope climb alone. A second rope allows you to descend if you use a descender/abseil device. I use a big rope, one end pulled with one halyard and the other end with a second to give me two ropes, yet I have a nice long rope for something I can't think of yet.

[boatman61]

This thread demonstrates the detrimental effects of banning kids from tree climbing..

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by boatman61

This thread demonstrates the detrimental effects of banning kids from tree climbing..

Now that is funny!

I'm not going to say how I would climb a mast. In fact, I've done it many ways, and all of them can be safe. I will add that as a 30-year (and still active) rock and ice climber and one who has done much climbing in industry, I've probably spent as much time off the ground as all but a very few. I was also was present for 2 fatal falls, one from 250 feet. I'm an neither paranoid nor casual regarding climbing.

Climbing gyms. We talk a lot about the need for multiple ropes, but think about the 100,000 climbs per day at liability-conscious gyms? They do use ropes of know quality and they are replaced on a schedule. They also take falls. So one rope can be safe, period. OSHA generally (there are exceptions) requires two because ropes can be misused and because industrial tools and sharp edges can cut one.

Condition. That is the question. I heard about a guy who decked out when the masthead sheave failed, the line dropped on the cut out, and chopped the rope. A climber runs his hand along the rope every time he coils it and checks his carabiners every time he puts them away. Gear is retired (often to the boat) when it is barely broken in well, by sailor's standards. So comparisons are difficult. You could pull a climbing rope through if you wanted to; I've done this when the halyard looked like crap.

Clutter. You can get caught up in your knitting, no question. But a second line with a stop-and-go type device is simple enough. A Gri-Gri or Cinch can also work, but the rope size is critical. There are industrial versions, often used on roofs (they sell one at Home Depot). The cure for clutter is practice and going through the steps.

Solo. The idea of belaying with two independent halyards on winches is neat. I've done it when two hands were available. I also like to use a haul bag and have people to send stuff up. But I also climb with either one helper or none. In principle going solo adds some risk, but I don't think much. Recently I was cataloging mast climbing accidents, and NONE of them were solo. How about that. In some case the belayer was inexperienced and goofed. In some cases there was a miscommunication. Generally there was a lack of focus. I suspect solo climbers are less distracted and take their time.

Fun discussion. I would summarize by saying that there are many roads, but the gear is never better than the weakest link. Check all of your gear.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

This thread demonstrates the detrimental effects of banning kids from tree climbing..

ROTFLMAO!

Or maybe I should be crying?

Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Now that is funny!

I'm not going to say how I would climb a mast. In fact, I've done it many ways, and all of them can be safe. I will add that as a 30-year (and still active) rock and ice climber and one who has done much climbing in industry, I've probably spent as much time off the ground as all but a very few. I was also was present for 2 fatal falls, one from 250 feet. I'm an neither paranoid nor casual regarding climbing.

Climbing gyms. We talk a lot about the need for multiple ropes, but think about the 100,000 climbs per day at liability-conscious gyms? They do use ropes of know quality and they are replaced on a schedule. They also take falls. So one rope can be safe, period. OSHA generally (there are exceptions) requires two because ropes can be misused and because industrial tools and sharp edges can cut one.

Condition. That is the question. I heard about a guy who decked out when the masthead sheave failed, the line dropped on the cut out, and chopped the rope. A climber runs his hand along the rope every time he coils it and checks his carabiners every time he puts them away. Gear is retired (often to the boat) when it is barely broken in well, by sailor's standards. So comparisons are difficult. You could pull a climbing rope through if you wanted to; I've done this when the halyard looked like crap.

Clutter. You can get caught up in your knitting, no question. But a second line with a stop-and-go type device is simple enough. A Gri-Gri or Cinch can also work, but the rope size is critical. There are industrial versions, often used on roofs (they sell one at Home Depot). The cure for clutter is practice and going through the steps.

Solo. The idea of belaying with two independent halyards on winches is neat. I've done it when two hands were available. I also like to use a haul bag and have people to send stuff up. But I also climb with either one helper or none. In principle going solo adds some risk, but I don't think much. Recently I was cataloging mast climbing accidents, and NONE of them were solo. How about that. In some case the belayer was inexperienced and goofed. In some cases there was a miscommunication. Generally there was a lack of focus. I suspect solo climbers are less distracted and take their time.

Fun discussion. I would summarize by saying that there are many roads, but the gear is never better than the weakest link. Check all of your gear.

Thanks very much for this -- very interesting and useful!

I envy your experience and skill at climbing -- yet another skill which is highly relevant to our sport

I can very well imagine what you say about climbing solo and not relying on another person losing focus or screwing something up.

I am always afraid of going up on electric winches because of the risk that someone keeps the button down after I get to the top, or steps on it, or something. Yet all the pros use my electric winches when going up, and making the crew crank up by hand an 80kg man plus gear and tools 23 meters up just seems unconscionable. So I would very much like to be able to get up on my own, using leg power, which would require no more energy than walking up 7 flights of stairs or cycling a mile or two.

So maybe I will buy some ascenders and experiment with this.

Thanks for the useful tips.