Reefing lines

[Emerald Sea]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

I got this idea from SV Totem.

LF rings are fine, but low friction blocks are significantly better at reducing friction when hoisting and any removing any chafe at the ring.

[ATTACH]

[CAELESTIS]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Those low-friction rings are great. Why doesn't one of the lines in your pic go down to dead-end on the boom under the reef?

1. It is not my boat
2. The sail is not hoisted in the photo, just a slack line drooping.

[UNCIVILIZED]

There are even purpose made reefing blocks for this application, which get sewn onto the clew reef points of the sail with webbing. reef blocks-antal

Also, seriously consider using Maxi Jacket II, or RP25 coating on the lines, especially the stripped spectra. It greatly increases UV, & chafe resistance on any line it's used on. And depending on which one you use, it also bonds the core & cover together, if used where there's cover on the line. Thus making things a bit stronger, as the cover & core work together a bit more synergistically.
It's good for use on all sort of other lines as well. And it comes in various colors, so that it's easy to color code your lines. Whether reefing lines, halyards, or other.

Another helpful solution for chafe is to use an easily replacable Spectra pendant for the portion of the reefing line which sees the most chafe. Usually the bit that runs through the cringle, or low friction ring. And or, sometimes the sheave in the end of the boom.
You can simply link it to the primary (almost full length) reefing line via a luggage tag splice in the end of each connected together. The benefit being, that when it gets worn, you're only replacing 5' of line, or 15', vs. the entire reefing line itself.

Spectra's about the lowest friction, most cut & chafe resistant line there is, so it's a natural choice for applications that see a lot of this, such as reefing lines. Plus it's low stretch, & stretch is a big part of what causes chafe. With stretch causing both internal, & external chafing in lines.

Besides, with stretchy reefing lines, it's a lot harder/impossible to trim the sail well. Which causes baggy sails, resulting in more heeling, & less (forward) driving force. Both of which are slow, & uncomfortable. And this is happening when you most need to get the max drive out of the sail. Since poor sail trim in heavy weather causes drag to go up. And when this drag gets too high, you then can't go to weather well, or at all. Along with your leeway's greatly increasing. Which in theory, could lead to a nasty lee shore situation.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The problem may be an internal reef. If the blocks become twisted they lock up. The cause is turning block and winch orientation.

Sail Delmarva: Internal Reefing and Friction

Can't say as I'm a fan of such reefing systems. Tend to be more trouble than they're worth. And part of the lines twisting, & hockling or binding is caused by twist being introduced via the way the lines are put onto & taken off of the winch, in addition to twist being put into them via coiling. Which is something that you quite often see in halyard tails, or long coiled sheets. And in them it's fairly easy to get the twisting in the line, or it's core, out. But when one end is dead ended such as in the above pic, it's more difficult to remove, as it's only possible to rotate one end of the line unless you unshackle the line's fixed end.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Emerald Sea

LF rings are fine, but low friction blocks are significantly better at reducing friction when hoisting and any removing any chafe at the ring.

[ATTACH]

The problem with blocks here is that they have a bad habit of being undersized. Reefing blocks carry a massive load and blocks sized large enough need to be very big, and thus very expensive. A friction ring by comparison is a fraction the price and much stronger, and for as often as they are used they work great.

Combine them with dyneema and it isn't as low a friction system as a block, but it's low enough.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

Thanks Paul, Ann, admiralslater and NakedCity. I appreciate the quick and thoughtful replies.

I do have a Harken T track and bat-slides on the mast and I replaced the masthead halyard sheave with a Garhauer ball bearing sheave last year. They work fine, so it's now just the reefing lines and boom end sheaves to worry about. Will something like 10mm Spectra cored line be more slippery and not stiffer than the sta-set? Does it make sense to consider stripping the cover off and just having the core go through the the sail?

I like the hand of the polyester covered spectra cored line, it is less stiff than the sta-set. It is what we use, for a somewhat larger mainsail, and it seems to go satisfactorily through the polished s/s cringles. I think Uncivilized and Stumble have answered the rest.

Sorry to be so late getting back to you, we've been out sailing.

Ann

[UNCIVILIZED]

Ann, thanks for chiming in on this. Maybe, since a lot of folks are skeptical about using high modulus cordage for reefing lines, you could comment on the longevity of the ones you & Jim have. Along with tales of wear, comparitively, of other line materials.
Input on this from some other folks might help, as I often meet with a lot of skepticism on this topic.

Also, for those who're unaware of this, it's quite common to find high modulus lines, or core on sale. And when I find it cheap, I usually buy a bit extra to stash away. Like the 10mm NER 12-strand Spectra I recently ran across, shockingly cheap. So now there's 600' of it sitting in my closet. And in the past for example, I've picked up 11mm Warpspeed for $1.25/ft, & 10mm for $1/ft. So if you look around, the stuff needn't be expensive.

[Snowpetrel]

Prehaps the part of the problem is not overhauling the reefing pendants before raising the main.

Even then this should only need doing if you were prevously reefed, normally the reef pendants should be left fully slacked and as long as they dont foul or some misguided soul doesn't pull them though the boom in an attempt to "tidy" them up they shouldn't be an issue most of the time except when shaking out a reef.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Ann, thanks for chiming in on this. Maybe, since a lot of folks are skeptical about using high modulus cordage for reefing lines, you could comment on the longevity of the ones you & Jim have. Along with tales of wear, comparitively, of other line materials.
Input on this from some other folks might help, as I often meet with a lot of skepticism on this topic.

Also, for those who're unaware of this, it's quite common to find high modulus lines, or core on sale. And when I find it cheap, I usually buy a bit extra to stash away. Like the 10mm NER 12-strand Spectra I recently ran across, shockingly cheap. So now there's 600' of it sitting in my closet. And in the past for example, I've picked up 11mm Warpspeed for $1.25/ft, & 10mm for $1/ft. So if you look around, the stuff needn't be expensive.

Well, we've had this 10 mm spectra cored braid as reefing lines for 13 y ears now. We spend a fair amount of time reefed... big main, small crew, and with the first reef in, we can leave the runners both set when tacking or gybing. Old fart stuff, but it is reality these days! We have had the cover chafed through on the third reef line, but no damage apparent to the spectra core. Dunno why the third reef... way less time on it than either of the other two, and not much sail area to deal with. The other two lines are a bit worn in the loaded area, but not close to through the cover. One of these days i'll get around to end-for-ending that third reef line.. don't want to replace it, for it is nearly 150 feet long! Maybe I'll try splicing a dyneema 12 strand pennant on the working end as discussed above... seems a good idea to me!

And where are you getting that cheap Dyneema? Have not seen any such bargains down in the Southern Hemisphere. Bloody stuff is dear! But I love it...

Back to work: We've found that the low stretch reefing outhauls are a very good thing. The sail is under much better control, there is less panting as the loads vary, and hence less chafe, and because of the high strength of the spectra core one can use a smaller diameter line, and this reduces friction as it travels through is many bends and twists.

Cheers,

Jim

[44'cruisingcat]

My reefing lines are 8mm spectra. I have had them eventually wear through, so now I have the last foot or so at the boom end doubled. Seems to have drastically reduced the wear rate.

The spectra seems to slip through the reefing cringles nicely.

It's lightness also helps when raising sail.

[Suijin]

OK now I want to change out my reefing lines with spectra core. Damn all of you! You're expensive friends!

[cayennita]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

I'm trying to overcome friction resistance in my reefing system which makes raising the main difficult as well as making reefing difficult.

I have a 616 square foot loose footed main on a 28,000 lb boat. Each reefing line leads from the boom through a grommet in the sail, then to the sheave in the boom end, then through the boom (Isomat) to a rope clutch in the forward end of the boom served by a winch on the mast below the gooseneck. The tack reef grommets go onto horns on the forward end of the boom. The halyard and reef-lines are handled at the mast.

I've ordered new metal sheaves. The old ones were 28 year old plastic. My question is what rope to use for the reefing lines. The old ones were 1/2" Sta Set. They may have been up sized by a PO. I'd like to have adequate strength but reduced friction and still have the clutches get a good grip. Of course I want an economical solution for costal cruising and occasional offshore trips.


Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

In my 51 footer I had 7/16 lines going right through the grommets. All reefing was done from the mast. Lived on the boat for 13 years and double handed with my wife. She would lower the halyard from the cockpit and release the line as I pulled down the bat cars. The halyard was marked to help knowing when enough was released. I would hook the tack and start bringing in the clew reef line. Eventually place it on the winch and tighten up. Always making sure that both the vang and mainsheet have been released. No blocks, no magic boxes. Boom to grommet to sheave at end of boom to exit by the goose neck to winch mounted underneath behind the mast. One hand cranking. Afterwards I tied a line for the clew and around the boom to ease the load on the reefing line. It lasted all the years I owned the boat. KISS.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Ann, thanks for chiming in on this. Maybe, since a lot of folks are skeptical about using high modulus cordage for reefing lines, you could comment on the longevity of the ones you & Jim have.

Cost is the only reason people are hesitant to buy the dyneema cored line. You can get Amsteel in 3/16 for .70 a foot.... unfortunately, when the manufacturer puts a cover on it, the price quadruples. And i've not found a cover that I can buy for less than $1 a foot to do it myself.


I also bought 615' of the NE Spectra 3/8 too, but without a cover, I don't think my clutches will like it for reef/halyards. It'll be used for shore ties.


Matt

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Can't say as I'm a fan of such reefing systems. Tend to be more trouble than they're worth. And part of the lines twisting, & hockling or binding is caused by twist being introduced via the way the lines are put onto & taken off of the winch, in addition to twist being put into them via coiling. Which is something that you quite often see in halyard tails, or long coiled sheets. And in them it's fairly easy to get the twisting in the line, or it's core, out. But when one end is dead ended such as in the above pic, it's more difficult to remove, as it's only possible to rotate one end of the line unless you unshackle the line's fixed end.

1. More trouble than they are worth? Only until you learn to use them. After that, quite trouble free, less clutter, and only one line to winch. I did not like them at first, for the reason you gave, but after moving one block, they work great. Very fast.
2. No need to unshackle. In fact, it is MUCH better to work the twist out the same way it went in, by twisting the rope. Never try to untwist from the boom end--you will only have opposing twists.
3. Yes, coiling is the devil. Only figure 8 coils.

I have since added a 3rd reef, but that is external.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Cost is the only reason people are hesitant to buy the dyneema cored line. You can get Amsteel in 3/16 for .70 a foot.... unfortunately, when the manufacturer puts a cover on it, the price quadruples. And i've not found a cover that I can buy for less than $1 a foot to do it myself.

I also bought 615' of the NE Spectra 3/8 too, but without a cover, I don't think my clutches will like it for reef/halyards. It'll be used for shore ties.

Matt

It's been a while since I bought cover, or line to strip out it's core & use as cover, but typically Samson's LS Yacht Braid is reasonably priced. Try Defender, as said line in 1/2" is $0.92/ft which in theory will work with 3/8" core.
I say in theory, as it's fairly common for 12-strand Spectra to be a bit bigger than it's nominal size. Though real size vs. nominal size varies from one manufacturer to the next. So check/test things out before buying in bulk.