Removable inner forestay anchor point.

[Ausluke]

Our boat has a inner forstay rigged to the mast and i never thought much of it and has always been tied off.
After abit of research im thinking it may be a good idea to have it rigged up with a smaller jib for a better sail plan in high winds ( rather than a furled genoa pulling the primary forestay way over in 25knts and a horrible sail shape)

Opinions of this? ( keep in mind im 8 months into this sailing thing and trying to learn. So try not to bite my head if something i have said is way off )

Ontop of that, looking at the existing hardware to mount this inner stay on the deck, seems abit under engineered ? 3 bolts with washers basicaly.
Pictures attached

[hpeer]

We have cutters and use the staysail, on an inner forestry, a lot. Especially as the wind gets up. The easiest thing to do is get a bank on staysail. Try it out. I think you will love it.

As to the attachment it would be simple enough to get a bit of 304 or 326 ss and make a bigger backing plate to distribute the load better. The staysail should not have tons of load on it.

[Adelie]

In high winds the inner foresail will set and drive the boat better. Also the extra forstay will better support the mast.
What do you have at the back side of the mast where the inner forestry attaches?

[Jim Cate]

From the photo it appears that the attachment is right next to a formed stringer or tunnel and also a glassed in bulkhead. I'd suspect that this is adequate support for the deck. Whether the washers afford sufficient area for the bolt loads kinda depends on the deck construction in that area. If it is cored right where the bolts go through it could compress the core under load, so that would be worth checking. If it is cored, a larger backing plate would be good, and doing the usual ream out the balsa and replace with epoxy bog trick would add belts to the suspenders!

Jim

[hpeer]

Jim,
That “tunnel” is where his windlass sits. You can see that in the outside photo.

Also I meant to say “304 or 316 grade ss”

And “HANK on staysail” (sheeze!)

About the runners or staysail stays, I kinda assumed they were there as he had the forestay attachment but it’s a great question.

[Bill O]

[QUOTEWhat do you have at the back side of the mast where the inner forestay attaches?[/QUOTE]

I'll rephrase this good question. Where does your inner stay attach to your mast? If it attaches ~2/3 up the mast, you'll most likely need some running back stays to help keep the mast from bowing/flexing when using the inner stay.


Bill O.

[Adelie]

Jim, if you look close the 3 nuts and washers are for the hand rail-looking thing. There’s a long bolt for the eye at the fore end of the”handrail”. I’d like to see a photo of where that long bolt goes and what it anchors to.

[hpeer]

Looking more closely at your photos, what is the other hardware for? The single eye with the super long thread? Is it possible the staysail is supposed to attach to that? And the threaded bit is buried somewhere deeper in the hull for more support?

Edit
Ah! Adelie beat me to it!

[billknny]

A Dufour 38.5 is not normally rigged as a cutter, so I am guessing this is a previous owner modification. It is POSSIBLE that there are reinforcements that were built into the deck at this point we can't see... but I doubt it.

Turning a sloop into a cutter is a much more complex task than just tacking on a forestay. Especially on a boat like this with a rather small foretriangle. I love cutters, but not every boat should be one.

I would certainly not consider that attachment as sufficient for resisting the upward pull of a forestay. IF the vertical member next to the bolts is structural, AND well bonded to the hull at its base, as a minimum a right angle bracket to transfer the upward load from the deck to the bulkhead would be required. There are a lot of "ifs" in that...

Do you have running backstays for use when flying the staysail? They are likely needed, but a qualified rigger can tell you.

One of the concerns I have with modifications like this to boats like the Dufour is that they are lightly built. That is not a criticism, light boats sail better than heavy ones. What is does mean is that there is not extra load carrying structure just hanging around to attach things to.

Finally, if your genoa is "pulling your forestay way over" in 25 knots your rig is seriously out of tune. Fix that long before you go to cobbled up modifications. A foam luff to help sail shape on your genoa might be a better investment.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Bill O

I'll rephrase this good question. Where does your inner stay attach to your mast? If it attaches ~2/3 up the mast, you'll most likely need some running back stays to help keep the mast from bowing/flexing when using the inner stay.

I'm going to piggy-back on the OP's thread for this question ... I have a similar inner-forestay for my storm-jib, which attaches a bit above the spreaders ... but there are no running-backs installed ... Do I need to install some? and if so what?

For the OP ... the deck attachment of my inner-forestay is connected by a chain inside the anchor locker to a bolt on the bow chainplate, to prevent it pulling the deck up.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Jim, if you look close the 3 nuts and washers are for the hand rail-looking thing. There’s a long bolt for the eye at the fore end of the”handrail”. I’d like to see a photo of where that long bolt goes and what it anchors to.

Well, I am not sure what those separate bits of ironmongery are meant for. I'd thought that the stay would go to the forward opening of the divided loop and the tack of the sail to the aftermost one... but clearly, that could be wrong. If the eye is intended for the stay, the tack fitting seems way overbuilt, for it would be a lot stronger than the eye bolt. Kinda odd...

The proximity to the bulkhead should support the deck well enough, IF the deck itself is stiff. The "tunnel" also helps stiffen the area. Obviously we internet experts can't make quantified evaluations from a photo. I suppose that this whole fixture could be a DIY retrofit, but equally, it could be OEM. I guess a query to the builder might be in order.

Jim

[Ausluke]

No running back stays, and the existing inner stay is hung just under the primary forstay. Mabe 2 ft below. I did read when we bought the boat ,as general research they were out of the factory a sloop/cutter with a removable inner forestay.

The deck were the 3 bolt attachment is located does seem of heavy construction tapping around it. I mean it is right next to the windlass mount. As for the eyelett just forward of it. Your guess is as good as mine for its purpose. Is screws into the same area ( construction ) as the other. Obviouly mounting anything to it would be limited as its just one threw deck bolt as opposed to 3.

I would definitly make up a larger backing plate for that 3 bolt anchor point should i use it..

Next question is; many cutters i have seen have the inner stay alot further down the mast. As i mentioned the existing i have is quite high in comparision. Is it just and extra stay or still fine to hang a sail off it?

As for the rig being out of turn when the genoa is furled in alot. I dont believe its out of tune just because i have seen alot worse.and the boat was surveyed not that long ago with a rigg report. Obviouly as the head sail is furled the force is directed more to the centre of the stay as it shrinks. Wich gives more leverage from the centre. Mabe its just me but i dont like seeing single peices of rigging being loaded up this way. Like people that sail with just a genoa out on a broad reach ? Why load up just the forestay when the main could be up and mabe furl the genoa slighty if needing some reef. Share the load across the rig( im in croatia, and just mentioning what i see. Wich is 95 percent charter boats)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Ausluke

No running back stays, and the existing inner stay is hung just under the primary forstay. Mabe 2 ft below. I did read when we bought the boat ,as general research they were out of the factory a sloop/cutter with a removable inner forestay.

Sounds like a solent rig, not cutter.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by StuM

Sounds like a solent rig, not cutter.

Yes, this arrangement is called a Solent rig, and yes, it is designed to have a sail flown from it, typically somethin very like a #4 jib: full hoist, no overlap. Because the top of the stay is so near the backstay's support, no runners are needed.

This is how our boat is rigged (except ours is fractional) and it has worked out very well for us. Only drawback is that we must roll up the Genoa each time we tack or gybe. Our Solent is on a furler, so detaching and getting out of the way when not needed isn't practical. Because it is so easy to switch from gennie to Solent, we very seldom use the gennie reefed. Saves wear and tear on the lighter sail and doesn't do the mid point stay loading that you were talking about (and I agree that using a reefed foresail does increase wire loading and deflection).

Jim

[B23iL23]

As @Jim Gate said this is a Solent rig and I agree with all he said. It's a great rig for flexibility - Ours is 120% on the outer (front) sail, and 100%, non overlapping, self tacking on the inner. Anytime off the win in < 20 knots it's the 120% as a reacher.

The innner self tacker along with the main is a great upwind combo and gives you ease of handling and a great range of wind speeds.

A lot of older (70's/80's) had an inner forestay to support the mast from inversion (bend backwards in the middle) but not to take a sail. Just make sure yours is designed to take the load of the sheeting if you put a sail on it.