Rigging a 170 Jib other than Main Furler

[lr172]

I am new to the forum, but have been sailing for 3 years.

I have a Hunter 34 and sail on Lake Michigan. My biggest problem is light winds. We have many days with 5-8kt winds in the heart of the summer. They take away many days of sailing and I am looking for options to sail on these days. My crew is pretty inexperienced, so I need options that do not require an experienced crew, such as the Sym Spinnaker that we have.

I plan to make an Asymmetrical spinakker from a Sailrite kit this Spring to help with Beam and Broad reaching situations (seems that 90-135 is the expected AWA window). However, I still need something to help me upwind (50-90 AWA) when the 150 Genoa starts flapping. I thought about building a Drifter, but that is another $1000 that I would rather not spend this year. My boat came with a Dacron 170 Genoa that I have not flown yet. It looks like it might be a 4 oz. weight, but hard for me to tell. It has a luff tape for the furler, but I want a way to sail it without having to take down the 150 Genoa on the furler.

I considered flying it with a loose luff. I figured I would lose some pointing ability, but I am not sure I can get away with this. I am hoping the group here can provide some guidance on the feasibility of this strategy.

The other alternative that I considered was to run some Sprectra line from the foredeck (should be able to find a hardened piont near the forestay) to the mast top via the spare Jib halyard as a temporary forestay. I would then use the Spin Halyard to raise the 170 (would have to add hanks, but that would be relatively easy to do).

Another alternative would be to rig some parral bead straps to wrap around the furled jib and attached with the hanks.

I am hopefull that I can get some thoughts on these alternatives from those more experienced than I.

I appreciate any guidance you can provide.

Larry

[Stumble]

Larry,

A free flying 170 is going to be a terrible idea. You couldn't get enough luff tension on it to keep the sail from bagging to leeward, and if you ever got enough tension you would likely rip it in half from the loads.

I am not sure why it is such a big issue to swap out the sails from the roller furler. It should only take a few minutes even if you do it alone. With a couple of people to help it shouldn't take any more time than the other things you are talking about to set up.


If you really can't swap sails then your only option is a code zero. It would take about $1,000 to install a bowsprit on your boat designed to take the loads, then the sail of course. But once installed would allow you to point up to your desired 50 degrees. The upside is the sprit would also allow you to set large asymmetrical sails for downwind and reaching as well. If you go this route you could also sell your current spinnaker rig and the 170.

[lr172]

I leave my 150 up all year and I guess I don't do it enough to be comfortable with the operation. During launch and take out it always seems like such an uncomfortable operation. I guess that I just need to learn the most effective and efficient method of performing this. I suspect this is one of the downsides of conveniences such as furlers. This is my first sailboat and I have not had to take Jibs up and down and therefore never mastered the task and developed confidence.

Do you know of any good links that would help me learn the best way to do this? Learning this would also increase my comfort in swapping the 150 for the smaller jibs when the wind pops up. This, I suspect, would help me to reduce healing. I have dreaded the idea of taking a sail down at sea with the wind up.

Do you think that the medium weight Dacro will perform acceptably in 5-8 knot breezes or do I need light Nylon?

Thanks for your help.

Larry

[Stumble]

I don't think I have ever heard of a nylon sail, other than spinnakers. And cloth weight is determined by a number of factors including sail size (square footage not percentage), expected wind speed, expected lifespan, sheeting angles and expected foot loads, ect. I wouldn't begin to guess on what is appropriate for you without a lot more information. And even then there are a lot of types of Dacron that range from high quality to crap. The better quality dacrons for instance can get away with lighter weight cloth but retain the same durability.

I can't put to any specific videos on how to best drop a sail and put it up. My thought would be to ask a local couple of college sailors to come out with you and show you how to do it. Figure it will cost you a case of beer, and perhaps a few rum drinks. But they should be able to walk you thru how to drop and swap a foresail quickly.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I don't think I have ever heard of a nylon sail, other than spinnakers. And cloth weight is determined by a number of factors including sail size (square footage not percentage), expected wind speed, expected lifespan, sheeting angles and expected foot loads, ect. I wouldn't begin to guess on what is appropriate for you without a lot more information. And even then there are a lot of types of Dacron that range from high quality to crap. The better quality dacrons for instance can get away with lighter weight cloth but retain the same durability.

I can't put to any specific videos on how to best drop a sail and put it up. My thought would be to ask a local couple of college sailors to come out with you and show you how to do it. Figure it will cost you a case of beer, and perhaps a few rum drinks. But they should be able to walk you thru how to drop and swap a foresail quickly.

I've used nylon drifters to good advantage in light airs. I think code zeros are more popular today, but with hardware costs a lot more.

From: http://www.porttownsendsails.com/pdf..._air_sails.pdf

The drifter—also called a reacher—is a time-honored, handy, and versatile sail. Unlike other light air
sails, it carries satisfactorily on all points of sail. A drifter generally allows a vessel to sail close hauled and
to tack, and it’s very easy to control when set and struck. This sail is essentially a large, powerful,
hanked on genoa built of light weight fabric. Its intended wind range is 3-12 knots apparent, and its size
on a sloop generally ranges from 140 to 160 percent of the fore-triangle area. A drifter can be made of
nylon, Dacron, or a laminated sailcloth made of various “exotic” fibers.


Photo from: http://www.milliej.com/Images/Sale-pic-0909P.jpg

[JPA Cate]

Years ago, I sailed on a boat with a (probably tired) drifter. It was constructed of ripstop nylon. It was good up to 90 deg. apparent; not so good above that; and below that okay to about 130. It was extremely light weight, and packed small, with light air sheets.

A 170 seems HUGE to me, but if you have it, why not go out on a light air day, and assess how the sail does? Then you could decide for yourself whether or not you want to craft a sail for her, and what it would be...n'est-ce pas?

If you set it flying, get everybody organized before you strike it, and come head to wind for the dropping, with the crew assembled to get it on deck. Then review what might improve the operation. When you have crew to help, many things are possible you might not attempt single handed.

Enjoy.

[Stumble]

I had forgotten about drifters. But the ones I have used were much smaller, and intended for truly light (sub 3kn) winds. About the size of a #4 (85%) when the small size helped them fill when nothing else would.

On modern race boats they have been replaced by code zeros. That can handle the very light breeze, but are also useful in a blow.

[Tar34]

The OP knows the limitation of setting his 170 loose luffed. I have done exactly that many times with no expectations other than the course set. That being said, if the 170% is in reasonably good shape loose luff might be an option on the days he wishes to fly it. As another poster said, set the sail and see how it performs. The stress in the luff would be no more than an asymmetrical spinnaker. Apply prudent luff tension so your pointing is not overly compromised. I would rig just like an asymmetrical, set on a spinnaker halyard and sheets run outside the forestay. With practice it might be suitable for your needs. Also, since you are handy with a sewing machine, if you decide the sail will work for you, you could always sew another bolt rope on the luff if you feel the current tape is inadequate.

[lr172]

Thanks for all the comments and feedback. I wish I had played with the 170 last summer. I will definitely experiment. I was looking for guidance now, in hopes of finding an option to buy used and modify or make new before the season, if necessary.

Between the Sym Spin on the boat and the Asym that I am going to build, I think I'll be well covered from 90 AWA and deeper for the lighter days. I am thinking that I may need something to cover me from 50-90 in the light air. Hopefully the 170 will cover that for me. I don't think I need to point that high, as the 150 should do well enough when I have to.

I have been researching the Asymmetric choices out there and hopefully have found enough insight to get a cut that will get me to 70 or 80 degrees apparent in light air. It seems that a larger foot dimension with a mid-girth in the 85% range will get me there at the expense of the deeper angles.

Larry

[Tar34]

Originally Posted by lr172

Thanks for all the comments and feedback. I wish I had played with the 170 last summer. I will definitely experiment. I was looking for guidance now, in hopes of finding an option to buy used and modify or make new before the season, if necessary.

Between the Sym Spin on the boat and the Asym that I am going to build, I think I'll be well covered from 90 AWA and deeper for the lighter days. I am thinking that I may need something to cover me from 50-90 in the light air. Hopefully the 170 will cover that for me. I don't think I need to point that high, as the 150 should do well enough when I have to.

I have been researching the Asymmetric choices out there and hopefully have found enough insight to get a cut that will get me to 70 or 80 degrees apparent in light air. It seems that a larger foot dimension with a mid-girth in the 85% range will get me there at the expense of the deeper angles.

Larry

I if you are gong to build and asymmetrical I probably would not build less than 165% LP. Asymm's are not just for light air! At 165% this size sail s very manageable in the higher wind ranges.

[lr172]

Originally Posted by Tar34

I if you are gong to build and asymmetrical I probably would not build less than 165% LP. Asymm's are not just for light air! At 165% this size sail s very manageable in the higher wind ranges.

Thanks Tar. The Sailrite kit is 165% LP. However, it seems that modern Asymm's are being built / recommended to be 170-180% I was going to have sailrite cut it for 175% That's not too big, is it? I assumed from research that a lot of the handling characteristics were related to the roundness of the luff and fullness, as measured by mid-girth. I plan to make a sock as well, so hoped that handling would be manageable with me and one other non-skilled helper.

Larry

[Tar34]

Originally Posted by lr172

Thanks Tar. The Sailrite kit is 165% LP. However, it seems that modern Asymm's are being built / recommended to be 170-180% I was going to have sailrite cut it for 175% That's not too big, is it? I assumed from research that a lot of the handling characteristics were related to the roundness of the luff and fullness, as measured by mid-girth. I plan to make a sock as well, so hoped that handling would be manageable with me and one other non-skilled helper.

Larry

If you are going large go 180%. Unless you are really motivated or sail with regular crew you might get more use out of the 165% for two reasons: easier sail to set and fly especially single handed and two, you can carry it into the higher wind ranges when the breeze picks up in the afternoon. I think you will find it more than adequate in the light stuff too. IMHO

[gjordan]

I made a drifter out of 1,1/4 ounce rip stop nylon and it worked wonderful. It was a straight cut so the clew was high, and I cut it fairly flat assuming in anything over a few knots of wind it would stretch anyway. It kept me going on the Mexican coast when most boats were motoring(I was engine less) and it got me through the doldrums with some very nice 20 or 25 mile days when other boats sat still. I borrowed a yacht club floor to lay it out and sew it, and got a lot of miles out of it. As far as changing sails with a luff tape, I used to do day charters with my Peterson 44 , and if I had guests onboard that actually knew how to sail, I might change head sails 3 or 4 times on a daysail in the tropics. I would always come in tired from foredeck work in the heat. When I gave up chartering I converted to a cutter(added an inner forestay) and rarely changed the jibs on any daysail.____Another 2 cents worth._____Grant.

[islandplanet]

Rather than go to the bother of replacing your conventional spinnaker, why not hire an instructor to go out with you and the inexperienced crew a few times? On a small boat like the Hunter 34, the conventional kite is a lot of fun.

The parrel bead thing has been tried.

For a cruising spinnaker, I wouldn't go more than 165% and I'd probably go less on a cutter or other boat with a large foretriangle. Don't make the mistake of buying 1.5 oz. 0.75 oz is what you want, especially for a boat like the Hunter 34.

For the sock, I'd suggest spending the money and buying an ATN.