Rigging over tight? To loose?

[boatman61]

I'm a small boat man.. 40ft and less so its much simpler.. once the mast is planted and shrouds connected to hold it steady I start on the lowers to centre it, then work on the fore and aft for the rake, usually 5-7degrees on most of my boats then finally tension the masthead stays.
Take her out in a F3-4 and note slackness of each shroud on each tack then go back in for the adjustments, repeat however many times till I'm satisfied.. also I don't use a tuner, I work by feeling the tension.
With other peoples boats I advise a rigger.. I don't want the responsibility/blame of something failing..
Although.. in spite of being in some very strong winds I've yet to lose a mast or displace a spreader on any of my boats..

[Hudson Force]

I also tune at the dock by feel, but I can't say that I've never done some adjustment underway. There seems to be some differences with sequence that I can't defend. I learned from my elders about fifty years ago and they're not around for me to ask why.

I center the mast by measuring for a port-starboard lean using the uppers and then straighten out any bend using the lowers.

I also step far away and sight along my main and mizzen mastheads from a distance to check alignment with a split rig.

I usually need to repeat this sequence to check the final result. I can't explain the reason why I keep the uppers tighter than the lowers and the forward lowers tighter than the aft lowers. I should know, but this is what I was taught fifty years ago and it's my long term habit.

[Tetepare]

The first thing is to position the rig properly. This is harder than it sounds, particularly on multi-mast and race boats.

Is my mast straight (port/ sbd) is rather easy: sight up it from the bottom. Your eye will pick out even the slightest bend.

Then: how tight: uppers will be tighter than lowers. How tight? As some have said, they can do it by feel. I can get it within ~4lb by feel, but most can't. I do like to have it equalized after launch (and after a second tune in early season to account for stretch), so I use a Loos gauge.

A guitar can be tuned from one string. A boat cannot.

My friends with a complicated race boat last year were fighting to straighten the rig by feel. I broke out the Loos gauge which we used to get everything balanced- and from there they could tune.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Now this contradicts everything I've been told/learnt about rigging.. one of which is Never tighten the lee shrouds while underway as you suggest.. apart from the fact its kinda hard to tell if a mast is straight on a 15-25degree heel.
As for overtightening.. guess you guys are unfamiliar with the term 'Banana Boats'.

That's pretty much the standard way to "tune" a mast after the dock tune is done. You don't tighten the lee shrouds all the way while underway. you just go for a sail and if the lee shrouds are really slack, you just count the number of turns to take the slack out of them, then back off half the turns. tack and then tack up the corresponding number on the opposite side. You site up the main mast sail track to check that the mast is still in column.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

The first thing is to position the rig properly. This is harder than it sounds, particularly on multi-mast and race boats.

Is my mast straight (port/ sbd) is rather easy: sight up it from the bottom. Your eye will pick out even the slightest bend.

Then: how tight: uppers will be tighter than lowers. How tight? As some have said, they can do it by feel. I can get it within ~4lb by feel, but most can't. I do like to have it equalized after launch (and after a second tune in early season to account for stretch), so I use a Loos gauge.

A guitar can be tuned from one string. A boat cannot.

My friends with a complicated race boat last year were fighting to straighten the rig by feel. I broke out the Loos gauge which we used to get everything balanced- and from there they could tune.

How tight? in 20 to 25 stiff breeze hard in a tack the leeward shroud should feel slack a bit.... to much slack and the rigging suffer from shock loads , some folks tie a bungee cord between the caps and the lowers but obviously that rigging is out of tune...

You should be able to shake the spreader a bit in the leeward shroud when sailing in one tack , i mean just a litle bit, also good idea to see the mast sail track when sailing hard on that tack and see if the spar is in column, any woble or spagueti form and back to the dock to make adjustments...

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Now this contradicts everything I've been told/learnt about rigging.. one of which is Never tighten the lee shrouds while underway as you suggest.. apart from the fact its kinda hard to tell if a mast is straight on a 15-25degree heel.
As for overtightening.. guess you guys are unfamiliar with the term 'Banana Boats'.

There's tightening and then there is tightening. You've been told to not tighten the lee shrouds too tight while underway, and that's obviously correct. But adjusting them underway, as part of fine tuning, is common practice. I don't think Don was advocating that, although his words "a couple of turns" might be casually aggressive. You're tightening them up so they are not loose..."comfortably snug and not floppy" might be a better way of putting it. I do it maybe a half turn at a time, tacking back and forth, making sure that my adjustments are symmetrical from side to side.

Ask any experienced rigger who does static (non-racing) tunes and they will say "piano wire tight" as the starting point on the shrouds, if you don't have a gauge. That is not gorilla tight. You adjust from there, lowers, fore aft etc for rake, prebend etc.

Unciv, if a racing boat is not breaking stuff now and then from a tight tune, then it's probably not competitive going to windward in higher wind speeds. Check the tune manuals on some larger one designs and you'll see eye-popping values for some of the suggested tensions.

[hafa]

Even with a Loos gauge, there seems to be a range of opinions on what's the correct tightness. I've currently got my rig at 12% and the lee shrouds have just a bit of play when close hauled and heeled. Any opinions on what's the optimum adjustment for shrouds in terms of % of breaking strength?

[neilpride]

Vary a lot, so far i tight at 20 to 25% as a rule of thumb, others at 15% , depend wire size, spar, boat etc etc.... i remember tight the caps in a old big 3 spreaders dufour where the caps need a 30% quite a lot but a really strong boat and the owner want the rigging really tight, other boats are ok with a 10 to 15% ,, inmast furling with sweep back spreaders are quite tricky because the mast need to set in column with litle rake, so 10 to 15 could be enough, doublé set of diamond struts multihul spar need probably 15 to 25 or even 30% i mean depend of many factors...

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi uncivilized, that's my point! Most I assume don't have a Loos gauge, as for this size rigging its quite expensive, therefore how are most doing it....the "it feels right test"....so far the only way I see is the 2m ruler option I mentioned in my above post.

Do you think an average bloke can over tighten by hand with to 12 inch shifters (7/16 and 3/8 wire)?

Oh, and nope don't have a car anymore, how cools that :-)

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

By "shifters", do you mean turnbuckles or bottle screws (UK?). Yes, give me a three-foot rod and I will tighten the turnbuckles on a 300-foot circa 1900 grain carrier.

If your shrouds and stays are that large, the cost of the right Loos gauge is a fraction of the cost of a snapped mast or masts. Proceed accordingly. This is no place to guess.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Vary a lot, so far i tight at 20 to 25% as a rule of thumb, others at 15% , depend wire size, spar, boat etc etc.... i remember tight the caps in a old big 3 spreaders dufour where the caps need a 30% quite a lot but a really strong boat and the owner want the rigging really tight, other boats are ok with a 10 to 15% ,, inmast furling with sweep back spreaders are quite tricky because the mast need to set in column with litle rake, so 10 to 15 could be enough, doublé set of diamond struts multihul spar need probably 15 to 25 or even 30% i mean depend of many factors...

Ours is a B&R fractional rig with swept back spreaders (1993 Hunter 40.5). Many boats with this rig don't have a backstay, but ours has a 3/16 diameter one for minor fine-tuning, I imagine.

$26k for a new mast; $4K for new rigging; $250 for a loos gauge for up to 3/8" wire; looks like the gauge is a great ROI...

[Cheechako]

Generally I like to get it all pretty snug and the mast straight, then go sailing. In maybe 15 knots of wind I like to have a touch of slack in the leeward rigging, but not flopping around, and of course, the mast straight.
You will often find in 15+ going to weather that the top 1/2 of the mast is bending forward, you need to adjust this out with the shrouds also.

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]I'm a small boat man.. 40ft and less so its much simpler.. once the mast is planted and shrouds connected to hold it steady I start on the lowers to centre it, then work on the fore and aft for the rake, usually 5-7degrees on most of my boats then finally tension the masthead stays....

Boaty, I start on the lowers to make sure it is centered, but fore and aft, how do you measure rake? I'd like to know how/where you base your 5-7 degrees (aft I assume).

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by hafa

Even with a Loos gauge, there seems to be a range of opinions on what's the correct tightness. I've currently got my rig at 12% and the lee shrouds have just a bit of play when close hauled and heeled. Any opinions on what's the optimum adjustment for shrouds in terms of % of breaking strength?

Correct. IIRC the Loos came with suggested ranges depending on how tight one wants the rig. I marked my Loos, so I simply adjust to the markings.

How tight? Depends on the boat and how it's used. Racers w/o adjustable rigs usually run very tight, damage to the boat/rig be damned. Most race boats these days have adjustable soft rigging (e.g., running back stays) in addition to the standing hard rig.

I wouldn't crank a Catalina 30 down hard. And, as somebody already said, you don't want the rig to be banging around when tacking/ gybing. So for a C30 and the like "medium" is about right. What is medium? As described, the leeward lowers will have some slack (never the upper/ main).

[Scot McPherson]

A rig should be as tight as required to prevent your leeward shrouds from relaxing. If they relax they become subject to cycling and thus fatigue shortening the life of your standing rigging, not to mention additional damage from shock if the wind shifts and the mast is suddenly loaded the opposite direction.

This is a lot tighter than people expect, if when you are heeled over and your leeward shrouds are flabby, then your shrouds are too loose.

Stays don't need to be so tight, in fact many stays are blocked so you can adjust your rake. Stays pretty much keep the mast upright, while shrouds take the brunt of the forces, hold the mast down against the deck or keel, and in most cases also keep the mast straight (i.e. the lower shrouds keep the uppers from crushing a bend into the mast).

Upper Shrouds are usually the tightest stays on a sailboat.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

Boaty, I start on the lowers to make sure it is centered, but fore and aft, how do you measure rake? I'd like to know how/where you base your 5-7 degrees (aft I assume).

Hang a weight on your main halyard once she's stable and centred and tweak your forestays and backstays.. at least that's the way I was taught/advised years back.. then calculate how many inches the line needs to move away from the vertical/mast.. usually have to adjust the lowers as well slackening and tightening as appropriate..
HF.. that's why I like to go back in after each sail.. step off and go ahead of the bow to see how the mast looks.. sort of a second opinion after looking up the track to confirm any curves/leans that should not be there.. find it helps me calculate what sequence to play with the strings.
This is not a rigging class.. just what works for me.. take it with a pinch off salt..