Rod Vs Wire Rigging

[Bolt]

I need to change the rod rigging on my Beneteau First 45F5 and because of my location, it is impossible to ship rod rigging.
I would like some thoughts from others on swapping to wire rigging.
I realise the advantages of rod being a smaller diameter compared to the equivalent wire size and stretch values between the two mediums.

Personally, I like the thought of being able to physically see if a multi-strand wire has broken compared to finding cracks in rod rigging.

[neilpride]

You should check if the spreader tips ends are the kind of rod tip cups if is discontinuos, and the kind of mast rod tangs...if is continuous there is no problems so far...


And wire usually warn before it fail, rod nope, I see no problem so far if your mast fittings allow wire terminals without big expenses , I mean if you need to change the spreader end tips is something to add to the budget, same for tangs...

[UNCIVILIZED]

Mostly what neilpryde said. Though you'll also want to check the pin sizes on your turnbuckles, tangs, & chainplates in case you need to go to a size of wire that takes end fittings which are of a different size than you may have right now.

Also, look into Compacted Strand (Dyform) wire. It's much better strength wise per diameter than is standard 1x19. And thus you may be able to get it to fit some of your end terminals more easily. And while you’re at it, it couldn’t hurt to study on synthetic rigging a bit. Though with it too, you’re looking at doing some mod’s to spreader tips & such. But perhaps a bit less when it comes to replacing tangs, & other end terminals.

In the end, whichever way you go, you may not save a whole lot over rod, due to needing new end fittings, & possibly adding a few tangs, along with the bolts for them, etc. So know that going in.

And if you don’t already have a rigging library, yesterday would be a good time to start building one. Including/especially Brion Toss’s works. I don’t have his latest as yet, though Stumble seems to think highly of it. However his Rigger’s Apprentice is a great starting point. And some others are available both online, & in print. Knowledge = $ (saved).

On this, keep in mind that many of the “old” techniques have been being recycled In the last decade or two. Both via synthetic rigging, & splicing techniques. And in terms of end terminals, stay tensioners, lashings, etc. Plus an oldie, but goody, poured sockets. So that there are now dozens of ways to do everything. Many/most of which would have been viewed as archaic 20yrs ago, but are now in fashion, again.

Ah, & I almost forgot this. Dye penetrant, & a magnifier are truly handy to have. Including Pocket Microscopes for inspecting things as favored by Brion Toss. And odds are that he still sells them. I still have mine, a 50x one. Along with several of his splicing wands, which are almost priceless. Since they make splicing any type of braided line super easy.

And there's a good bit of useable technical info on rigging, chainplate & tang sizing, & various rigging how-to's in the Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia, Vol. II which is downloadable (gratis) at SetSail FPB


PS: His books are "ancient", but outstanding. And worth the $ for the rigging info alone. Though there's loads more useful info on them. The author being Ross Norgrove, a Kiwi. And his books are early versions of those written by the Dashew's. Yes, big statement I know. But his works are that good.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Bolt

I need to change the rod rigging on my Beneteau First 45F5 and because of my location, it is impossible to ship rod rigging.

Why exactly can rod not be shipped to you? The shipping requirements for rod and wire are not very different.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Why exactly can rod not be shipped to you? The shipping requirements for rod and wire are not very different.

Odds are it has to do with the fact that rod, when coiled, is exceedingly large, diameter wise. I don't recall the exact figure, but it may be 200x rod diameter. So that if he has -17, which is 0.33" in diameter (I think), then the coiled up rod (so that it could be shipped) would have a diameter of 66". Plus a bit for packaging.

Don't think that you can just wind it onto a spool like you can with wire. Well, unless you have a bloody huge spool. Comments/thinks?

There's also the question as to how it has to be shipped if the spreader bends have already been put in, along with the cold heads being done, & stem balls & fittings attached. Since I'm not sure what the rules are about coiling rod which has said bends in it.

So if shipping it that way is difficult, or out, then there needs to be a local shop where all of the bending, & cold heading can be done. With the bends needing to be accurate to within like 1/2 a degree, if memory serves. And of course in precisely the correct place, so that they fit right in to the spreader tips.

It's definitely not a DIY job. Nor one that you can do without a specilized shop & equipment. Non?

[neilpride]

Agree, rod coiled its a pain in the ass to handle, OP mention the location, hard to shipping rod? one thing is for sure, this is not a DIY job , so I guess the OP talk with a rigging bussines around , then the rigging shop can handle the hassle of rod...
Why get involved?
If its me I keep going with rod, after all the money you are going to save in wire is going to be wasted in new terminals ... Mileage vary, rod can last a good bunch of years if properly maintained,,, now if is imposible for you to get rod or rod service then swicht to wire ,,, both ways are ok.

[transmitterdan]

Even with a bend in the rod it can be rolled up. Most freight carriers will ship it. Even air freight will accept it AFAIK.

Nothing wrong with wire. Most rod rigging can be replaced by wire. Any good rigger can do the design and specify the correct wire. If the yacht designer is still in business they often have the wire specifications already on file. Most boats that were built with rod had a wire option.

[Polux]

I had to make that choice on my boat and talked with riggers and read what manufacturers say and that's simple enough: Rod is better for sailing, more rigid and need much less re-tuning.

Because it is more rigid has less abortion capacity and it is more stressed and that means it does not last as much.

They talk a about an 8 year expected life for rod, 15 for wire, plus you have to take the mast out each 4 years for the rig to be thoroughly inspected and for changing the terminals (Swan says each 3 years, according with Neil).

Rod is also more expensive and if you join that to the price of new terminals and the price to take the mast down, not to mention 8 years instead of 15, rod it is much more expensive.

Note that 8 and 15 years are what manufacturers consider safe regarding changing it. It can last much more if you are lucky, but then you can be unlucky and ended up paying a lot more, not mentioning safety.

I changed from Rod to wire and I don't notice a big diference in what regards sailing performance. Really important when you search for the ultimate performance, mostly to racing.

[leftbrainstuff]

NDT on standing rigging makes sense for race teams but it's probably easier to just change it out. You can't NDT where it counts which is inside the joint.

We recently rerigged with all StaLoks. Simple, reliable and avoids trying to ship, return and reship assembled rigging.

Next time we'll go synthetic.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[RidgeRunner]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Why exactly can rod not be shipped to you? The shipping requirements for rod and wire are not very different.

Uncivilized is correct, rod cannot be coiled tightly enough to ship UPS, it has to go freight - not impossible, but much, much, more expensive. I had to get a new shroud sent from the rigger about 150 miles away. The best freight quote I could get was over $200. I ended up doing a road trip to pick it up myself.

A similar piece made from wire could be sent UPS for what, like $20?

[JPA Cate]

^^^^^

Please read the whole post. The OP's in Lae, Papua New Guinea! He may well and truly not be able to have it shipped to him where he is.

Ann

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Because it is more rigid has less abortion capacity.....

Did not know that.

[groundtackle]

Bolt, "I need to change my rod rigging.."
Why?
ce

[Snowpetrel]

Given that the design is fractional with twin swept spreaders, no runners and an overlapping genoa you are going to have to look at the stretch characteristics of the rig carefully to make sure the whole thing doesn't start getting unstable under load. A breaking strain comparison between rod and wire alone isn't really enough.

This probably makes compacted strand wire well worthwhile looking into.

Other possibilities to reduce stretch would be runners and checkstays or lengthening the upper spreader slightly to reduce load on the caps if they are very short (typical for that era to allow a tight sheeting angle). Small increases in spreader length here have a big effect on the rigging loads and total stretch.

It is probably going to be worth getting a good rig designer to check and approve the modification before you start ordering bits.

Prehaps it may work out cheaper to sail the boat to aussie and get the work done there? Then rod could be an option again...

To reduce the weight back to a comparable amount as the old rig swapping the backstay out with dyice dux or some equavalent rope can bring total rigging weight back to something similar to the all rod rig, though windage and stretch will still be more than the original rod rig had.

It could also be worth looking at some of the modern rod replacements like carbon or kevlar rod?

I am interested to hear how it works out.

[Bolt]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Bolt, "I need to change my rod rigging.."
Why?
ce

Because it is the original rigging (1991) and one lower shroud is already broken. It's long overdue for replacement

Using a local workshop, I have made a jury connection and welded the broken shroud rod to it. I have no choice but to do it this way and nurse the yacht to Cairns. (.......with heaps of dunny paper)

My thoughts are that wire is easily replaceable compared to rod. It will take a bit of engineering with spreader tips and mast tangs etc., but once it is done.......it's done! Comparable strength wire size will be a big factor on my final decision