Running Rigging Rabbit Hole

[SF Bay Dude]

I am looking forward to splicing my new halyards. I need a fit kit. Anybody have any preferences as far as a certain brand?

[Benz]

The Samson kit sold at West Marine is fine--I use Samson fids every day. The Yale kit is a little spendy for the casual splicer; it has fid sizes people rarely use. A piece of SS welding rod bent in two makes a good pull-fid, a smaller one can be made with SS leader wire.

[Tillsbury]

Wow fancy pancy. I use an old wire coat-hanger reshaped ...

[B-Baysailer]

I like the Selma fids and a bent welding rod. I'm real fancy ��

[Jim Cate]

For places where a "push fid" is better I've gone to using knitting needles with the blunt end cut off at an angle. Cheap as chips at the notions store near you and available in a wide selection of diameters.

Jim

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Sure, and that's what I've been using for some while, but then we are the informed few and lots of folks use bowlines!

Jim

Well not anymore! as part of the uninformed most thanks for the tip.. so what thickness of dyneema do you use for your soft shackles? same as the Genoa sheets?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Well not anymore! as part of the uninformed most thanks for the tip.. so what thickness of dyneema do you use for your soft shackles? same as the Genoa sheets?

Should be sized for strength and should exceed the strength of the sheet if you don't plan on changing the soft shackles often, in order to make allowance for UV degradation, since they don't have covers.


While you're at it, a really worthwhile upgrade is to change the sheets themselves for Dyneema. It makes a remarkable difference in how the jib sets and holds its shape. On top of that, it's easier to make your eye splice for the soft shackle


I went from 16mm poly to 14mm racing dyneema double braid and got a huge difference in handling of the sheets -- they weigh like half of what the old ones do. Less windage, and much less stretch. Only downside was the cost.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Well not anymore! as part of the uninformed most thanks for the tip.. so what thickness of dyneema do you use for your soft shackles? same as the Genoa sheets?

I go for usually 5mm as there's a load of 5mm dyneema onboard. Tight enough bend radius already though easy to make a long one and double up. Better IMHO to size for ease of use, dyneema is so strong that sizing for strength would usually mean really thin soft shackles - 16mm marlowbraid has lower MBL than a 5mm marlow D12+ dyneema soft shackle.

For sheets, it's not that difficult to splice in a length of dyneema like D12+ to the end of the sheet, very light & basically non stretch for our usage. Works well

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Should be sized for strength and should exceed the strength of the sheet if you don't plan on changing the soft shackles often, in order to make allowance for UV degradation, since they don't have covers.


While you're at it, a really worthwhile upgrade is to change the sheets themselves for Dyneema. It makes a remarkable difference in how the jib sets and holds its shape. On top of that, it's easier to make your eye splice for the soft shackle


I went from 16mm poly to 14mm racing dyneema double braid and got a huge difference in handling of the sheets -- they weigh like half of what the old ones do. Less windage, and much less stretch. Only downside was the cost.

Well I am updating all the running rigging so now it is the time to do the upgrade. I was actually thinking of using Samson MLX3 for the price savings and good enough performance for my humble cruising boat though. First I did think about Endura Braid but I thought it was kind of overkill. We'll see where I can source what here in Europe. I am just starting to look at this and I do have the entire winter cause I just hauled the boat off the water till next year anyway

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by B-Baysailer

I like the Selma fids and a bent welding rod.

The Selma's are also my favorite pushers, but I usually pull and any old stiff wire is good, just need an appropriate size - I use stainless aircraft locking wire for thinner Dyneema.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Well I am updating all the running rigging so now it is the time to do the upgrade. I was actually thinking of using Samson MLX3 for the price savings and good enough performance for my humble cruising boat though. First I did think about Endura Braid but I thought it was kind of overkill. We'll see where I can source what here in Europe. I am just starting to look at this and I do have the entire winter cause I just hauled the boat off the water till next year anyway

Call YouBoat in Gosport and ask them for some Liros or Marlowe racing dyneema off-cuts. You might be surprised at the deal you can find if you're willing to be flexible about the colour. That's where mine came from.



For a 40 footer (Malo is a fantastic boat, BTW), which probably came with 14mm double braid polyester jib sheets (?), I guess 12mm racing dyneema double braid will be just fine, super light, flexible, easy to handle, and practically stretchless. You will notice a difference. You Boat will even splice the eyes for you for a nominal fee if you don't want to do it yourself.


This is what I am using:


https://www.marlowropes.com/product/...re-marine-rope


Average break load of the 12mm version is 6.7 tonnes. Soft shackles might be 8mm single braid.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

While I agree with your general thesis here, the majority of yachts I've been on use knots to attach genoa sheets to the sail. There are lots of alternative methods, but the common bowline is very often the choice selected, and thus a knot will indeed do.

Jim

Of course. A poor example. I was thinking in terms of larger boats where polyester genoa sheets have to get pretty big to allow for knots. That is about the only place I've actually had a line break at the knot. One was, admittedly, quite old. The other was Kevlar, and the knot created a flex point (the knot was "fixed" when I got the boat and I simply did not change it, which was a mistake.)


It comes down the the interpretation of "will do." For examples, I will some times use a knot in a tackle, and other times not; it depends on whether I think it might tangle, whether it will rub, and whether I believe it is permanent. Many reefing line setups, for example, make a good case for knots.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Call YouBoat in Gosport and ask them for some Liros or Marlowe racing dyneema off-cuts. You might be surprised at the deal you can find if you're willing to be flexible about the colour. That's where mine came from.



For a 40 footer (Malo is a fantastic boat, BTW), which probably came with 14mm double braid polyester jib sheets (?), I guess 12mm racing dyneema double braid will be just fine, super light, flexible, easy to handle, and practically stretchless. You will notice a difference. You Boat will even splice the eyes for you for a nominal fee if you don't want to do it yourself.


This is what I am using:


https://www.marlowropes.com/product/...re-marine-rope


Average break load of the 12mm version is 6.7 tonnes. Soft shackles might be 8mm single braid.

Thanks for the tip I will call them up. And yes love the Malö and in fact I am a fan of most skandinavian builders... but mine is not a 40 footer it is closer to 32 :-)... apparently Malö had the brilliant idea back in the early 80s to confuse everyone with a marketing ploy. "This boat has the space of a 40 footer!"..even though it is only 32.. previous owner said they called it a reference to the cubic volume (40 cubic meters??).. so I was shopping for a 40 foot, went to see this one thinking it was one and fell in love with it. It is true it is unreal how much space it has... but I digress. I was thinking 10mm from one of the high tech fibers would do fine for halyards and sheets

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude

My head is spinning with all these choices. My old New England VPC (which Brian Toss advocates as a great "cruiser's choice") is in need of replacement. I am going to replace Main, Genoa, and Staysail halyards + Running Backstays (Those were uncovered Vectran and are toast as well. I have searched around and found a couple of options that I think would be a good fit for everything. All rope diameter is spec'd and priced for 1/2" (12mm).

Amsteel II Plus - 600' spool for $1492 = $2.48ft Stretch = .67 @ 20% load Breaking Load 19,400

Amsteel II - 600' spool for $1298 = $2.16ft Stretch is .67 @ 20% load

Samson MLX3 - $1.59ft Stretch is .74 @ 20% load

My boat isn't going to win any races, that's for sure, but I would imagine these choices are a step up from VPC at about the same price point. And with a spool I'd have enough left over for an extra halyard as well.

But I have been staring at so many different websites and I am rendered useless as a result. Have I missed something? What about the outer poly covers on the Amsteel, will they catch in my clutches? Shouldn't I just go for the cheapest option since they are so close? Brain shutdown. Am I splicing hairs here? Just get any one of these and I am good, no?

Thanks.

Dude

I think ropes now days are so good you can do just about anything and it will be good.

For jib sheets, main sheet and spinnaker guys we have used ancient polyester/spectra or polyester/technora. Sized for our race boat loads. (1/2" or 7/16). Knots in the ends of the guys tying on sparcraft (tyleska type) shackles. Barient J-lock shackles spliced onto the jib sheets. Old fashioned I know, but we've had them for many years. The excess strength allows for knots to not cause failures. Our newest main sheet is FSE Robline, so we are going more modern when we update.

For all the rest of the running rigging, (and also lifelines) we have dyneema. Various brands, whatever we could get on sale. Halyards are 6mm AMsteel bare dyneema with covers off except where they need to be left on for handling and rope clutches. Sparcraft shackles spliced on.

Runners, checkstays, (and lifelines) are 6mm bare dyneema

Spinnaker sheets are Salsa dyneema with tyleska shackles tied on.

The knots we have are permanent. We have not gotten into soft shackes much yet, but we have a few in use.

So you can see that we are not too picky about our lines and line selection. That being said we've not had any failure of a line for many years, I don't even remember when the last one was, and we do push this boat fairly often. Old IOR boats can load up pretty good.

[Seymore]

Originally Posted by Benz

You should never tie a knot where a splice will do, and you should never tie knots in endura braid or any other high modulus rope.

Consider the 'buntline hitch'. From Cruising World, May 1998, the Seamanship section, by David Seidman; New Knots, Old Knots, Good Knots.

====Start Article================
<Deletia>
Buntline Hitch: Sometimes You Just Can't Improve On The Old Way

After centuries of trial and error, one knot proved itself superior for attaching a halyard or sheet to a shackle. While today we slap on a generic bowline, in the golden age of sail it was the buntline hitch.

Buntlines were tied into cringles along the foot of a square sail and used to haul the foot up to the yard when furling. Why a special knot for this job? <Deletia> And when it is furled, you want the foot of the sail to come right up to the yard, which requires a knot which is compact enough to let the cringles almost touch the yard.
<deletia>
If you use an eye splice for your halyard, the thickest part ahead of the eye prevents you from getting maximum hoist and can jam in the block. A bowline is too bulky. But the buntline hitch snugs right up to the eye of the shackle or headboard grommet, allowing a full hoist. This knot makes a clove hitch around the standing part of the line. It can be snugged up and worked in very tightly with only a short end exposed.

The one problem with the knot is that it can be difficult to untie after a heavy load is put on it.
========End Article===========
(Manually copied, mistakes are mine....)

https://www.animatedknots.com/buntline-hitch-knot