Sail Inventory for a Large Cruiser

[Greg4cocokai]

I totally agree with Andrew if you go without a spinnaker and DDW. I've had some of my fastest speeds on a J44 i used to skipper, broad reaching, with the main and poled out jib to leeward. Just make sure the Forspar pole is big and long enough! We snapped the first one in half.

Cheers

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks a lot for that, Evans.

A couple of questions:

1. So your main working jib is just 105%? So little overlap? What led to that choice? I wonder myself whether large overlapping jibs don't just create a lot of heel and drag with little gain of drive -- they have a lower aspect ratio, after all. My yankee is about 135%.

Without the zero, this configuration would not work as well. The boat would be sticky in under 12kts. But with the zero, we have plenty of power under 12kts and plenty of power over 12kts.

2. So you're not finding an a-chute useful at all for downwind sailing? You prefer the Code 0 and blast reacher, although these sails are not supposed to be for anything too far off the wind? You are poling them out, I guess, so maybe that's the key?

If you are racing, a-chutes will give you more speed. Our zero is 1000sqf while our A2 is 2000sqf. The question is how important in a cruising context is that extra speed given the more difficult handling. We feel comfortable using the zero in all sort s of conditions where we would not the A2. As it gets used so much more it actually subtracts much more passage time than an A2 which is used less.

I know the sailmaker polar charts show the zeros only for close reaching, but that's for racing. The zero will fly deep perfectly well. Ours will fly to 130 AWA perfectly and to 150 AWA in a pinch. No, it will not be quite as fast as a chute which is both bigger and can rotate around the headstay to increase projected area (that's the sailmaker's point); but yes it will fly and it will keep you moving in light air.

We do not pole the zero or the blast reacher all that much. They typically fly (unpoled) to leeward with the working jib poled to windward. The poled windward jib feeds air into the leeward sail, so keeping it full and pulling at DDW angles. The racers & sailmakers really don't appreciate/understand this because they have (in the past) been mostly forbidden by the racing (rating) rules from flying two jibs like this, and because an a-chute is faster.

We only carry one pole. Many Water boats">blue water boats have double poles and that would be excellent but we have never felt enough need to add that extra gear.


3. It sounds like you are using your Code 0 and blast reacher on one of those rope-twist furlers, is that right? So you hoist with a spin halyard and belay the tack to a padeye or something on your stem fitting? Do you use your regular jib sheets, sheet leads, etc., or do you have separate sheets and sheet leads?

Yes, on a facnor 6000 continuous line furler.
We use a 2:1 spin halyard, set off conventional masthead spin cranes.
These sails have their own sheets, smaller than our normal jib sheets.
They also have their own sheet lead positions, along the toe rail.

Thanks a million for all this valuable information.

......

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by Greg4cocokai

I totally agree with Andrew if you go without a spinnaker and DDW. I've had some of my fastest speeds on a J44 i used to skipper, broad reaching, with the main and poled out jib to leeward. Just make sure the Forspar pole is big and long enough! We snapped the first one in half.

Cheers

I agree, I think most people underestimate the strength required by whisker poles generally. In defence of telescopic poles, because they're half length (almost) when you're handling them, weight is not such a handling problem as with fixed length poles.

Cost, however, is a problem with the Forespar item, particularly for big boats. Still -- big boat owners tend to have a well-practiced look of resignation while signing big cheques, IME

I forgot to mention another good thing about the 'poling to leeward' option: it's a great setup for sailing that tricky heading almost, but not quite DDW, for sectors too short to justify setting up the highly effective, Evans recommended "2 piece kite"

What I do in my home waters, where the home stretch very often requires (in summer) sailing for 3 or 4 miles at 165 AWA, in about 20 - 35 knots with a nice steep little sea, is this:

Pole the headsail to leeward, and alternate between
- sailing 150, or some such nice hot angle, with the headsail pulling like a freight train, pole extended to the max for that sail, .... and
- flicking the main over to the other side (especially when I see a gust approaching, if it's a juicy augmented seabreeze day) and running off, wing and wing, perched nicely in front of the wave crest, rock solid and (even in a boat which is tender and tall-rigged) virtually immune to a broach.

If the sail area is borderline for the wind strength, I'll square the boom all the way out, make sure the outhaul is taut, set the vang-preventer up hard, then bring the mainsheet in a tad to stop the mainsail head twisting off.

This, in combination with the headsail pole being the right length, keeps the white sails locked in place relative to the hull, in a way which prevents those small force oscillations which can otherwise quickly build up to a broach if their tempo happens to coincide with the natural roll period.

(Particularly with guest helmspeople. I recall taking my Mum sailing once, when she was still alive but getting on in years, in the waters where she spent her own summers as a child.

She was radiantly happy at the helm (she turned out to be a natural) and I couldn't bear to take it from her as the breeze built on a brilliant summer afternoon - so instead I raked the swing keel aft, worked ceaselessly on all aspects of the trim, and sweated bullets.

She never knew that we were sailing on the hairy edge of a broach for thirty agonising minutes)

On another occasion on a friend's boat, I could sense that he was distracted on the helm in an animated conversation with his guests, who were getting married the next day.
I braced myself for the imminent broach, and when it happened, I raced up to the mast and released the tackle on the telescopic pole before the full pressure of the wind could come on and buckle it.

A fixed length pole, even one with a track well up the mast, does not AFAIK have a safe option for dealing with the aftermath of a broach, in the absence of a very sophisticated outboard end which can trip remotely, and release an overloaded sheet or clew despite it acting in the compression direction for the pole.

It occurs to me as I write this that a really well engineered telescopic pole could include a self tripping cleat on the purchase, tunable like a snowski binding, that would protect the pole from buckling.

[stillbuilding]

Originally Posted by Greg4cocokai

I guess the pic did go thru. I forgot to mention they are cruising chutes with socks. North has CD Direct with good pricing as I've bought several, including the one in this pic. I'd go with the 1.5 oz. I once was flying along til it reached 34 kts, doused it myself as described in my last post, and its still with me!
Notice that I'm the only on deck and set all the sails myself. The girls are still getting up and making breakfast!

Cheers

Good pic and love your comments on sail handling. I wonder could you describe your furled headsails ie. size and how you use them.

[Greg4cocokai]

Sure SB and Thanks for the comments. I was pretty much a sloop sailor til I met a wonderful lady with a BIG boat, that wanted to sail around the world! Lucky me. Rigging a schooner was all new. When it came down to sails we were lucky to have a North loft right in front of us. Long story so I'll get to your questions. The Genoa (Profurl) on the sprit is 130% of its J, 1200 sq ft., foot 40'. The #2 jib (Profurl) is 90% of its J and can be poled out or sheeted inside the formast cap shroud for beating to weather, which we try to avoid. We have a stay'sl that is hanked on and fairly heavy. Our main stay'sl is on Profurl. The boom was set up with 3 reefs but I had the 13 oz. main built with only 2 deep reefs as I'm a bit lazy! After 6 yrs and over 30,000 nms, there is nothing I would do different. I almost always have a reef in the main in the tropics so as not to be a handful in squalls. I've found that upwind or reaching that we are maximized in the low teens, low 20's and low 30's. When it gets up around 20kts, we're a bit overpowered. We usually set the main, roll out the main stay'sl, hoist the stay'sl ( if more than a day), then pick the #1, #2 or spinnaker. We also set the fisherman when on long tradewind legs. The genoa is used 80% of the time to keep our 50 tonns (GRP) moving.

Cheers, Greg

The whole crew out for pics before going back for breakfast. How about pics of your big boat?

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Have you seen this:

Yankee Genoa sail | eBay

There won't be many yachts that can use a sail of this size and it says "never been used".

Pete

thanks for the link,picking it up tonight don't you love ebay paid £366 for a £1500 sail

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by atoll

thanks for the link,picking it up tonight don't you love ebay paid £366 for a £1500 sail

Bargain, especially if it hasn't been used as they say. Would have cost a lot more than £1500 to make now. Just paid £1300 for our Genoa.

Pete

[Bash]

We carry two jibs, a 110% lapper and an 85% yankee. The yankee is pretty much a summer sail for those months when we average 25kts of breeze every afternoon.

The only chute I carry currently is a North G3 gennaker in a sock. I find it much easier to use than a twizzle rig, especially because I don't have to bother with a pole. I've discovered that I can sail quite deep with it by easing the tack and allowing it to float to windward. Or I can reach fairly close by tightening the tack and adding a tack strap, especially in lighter air. What amazes me about the G3 is that I don't have to constantly trim it for optimal performance, like you would a conventional spinnaker. On a broad reach especially, even a deep broad reach, I can put it up and leave it for hours. (In those situations I tend to leave the autopilot on vane control, and everything works nicely.)

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Bargain, especially if it hasn't been used as they say. Would have cost a lot more than £1500 to make now. Just paid £1300 for our Genoa.

Pete

it is brand spanking new!,and never been used,nice heavy material as well,just need to buy 25x 16mm hanks and whip them on.
perfect for my #2 genoa........also ended up buying a used main and 2 genoas for the macwester,all in good condition.......haven't told the wife yet!

£580 pounds later.......i might have spent all the kids xmas present money......luckily we have a new "pound shop" opening in falmouth!

[bewitched]

I sail in Asia, which is predominantly light winds and I use an A2 in a sock for downwind - I like the performance, but it starts to become a handful once the wind gets above the mid 20's.

If I were sailing in predominantly windier conditions, like those you will encounter, I'd be favouring the A3.

As an aside, in racing circles, the A3 and Code zero are starting to morph into the same sail. Our A3 is the same sail as our Zero.