Seriously, why do people like in mast furling?

[double u]

I certainly would never ever even contemplate a system which would need the boat to round up into the wind & often held there by engine (like the "Sailtainers" on 3 or 4 of the boats in the fleet needed done). this is simply unacceptable, ever!
just imagine the hiding you'get from your lady: you are deep-reaching towards the Marquesas, boat going great guns, 2 weeks into the trades, these rising steadily through the night from 18kn to 25-30kn, swells fully developed, 2 in the morning & for the second time you have to head up into the wind, start the engine & hold the boat into or nearly into the wind with autopilot while winding in some mainsail into the roller-furler-boom:
the boat goes berserk, the lady gets thrown around in her bunk, everything on deck is soaking wet, if you are unlucky the thrashing boom (quite a heavy thing...) tears apart some traveller-bits...
to think that people actually PAY for such systems - incomprehensible to me

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by double u

I certainly would never ever even contemplate a system which would need the boat to round up into the wind & often held there by engine (like the "Sailtainers" on 3 or 4 of the boats in the fleet needed done). this is simply unacceptable, ever!
just imagine the hiding you'get from your lady: you are deep-reaching towards the Marquesas, boat going great guns, 2 weeks into the trades, these rising steadily through the night from 18kn to 25-30kn, swells fully developed, 2 in the morning & for the second time you have to head up into the wind, start the engine & hold the boat into or nearly into the wind with autopilot while winding in some mainsail into the roller-furler-boom:
the boat goes berserk, the lady gets thrown around in her bunk, everything on deck is soaking wet, if you are unlucky the thrashing boom (quite a heavy thing...) tears apart some traveller-bits...
to think that people actually PAY for such systems - incomprehensible to me

Oh the drama.... I have no idea what you're talking about.

On a furling boom, the sail comes down just like on a more traditional slab reefing set up except it gets furled into the boom through a wide opening which is usually the entire top of the boom. With in-mast furling, coming into the wind isn't necessary, but relieving some of the pressure is easier on the equipment.

Do you have any experience with either system?

[daletournier]

Hi Ken, when you say "relieving some of the pressure" do you do this by just backing the outhaul off little by little? I often turn ddw and use the rolls (less pressure) to furl.

Also I think double u is referring to in boom furling, from what I know these need to be head to wind.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by FutureStories

Maybe I'm just a little too paranoid. Maybe I'm just young and agile enough for it to not bother me to do a little more work.

You sell boats right? So what age group do you sell cruising yachts to? It isn't the young folk because western economies have ensured they are completely stuffed. Middle aged? well perhaps some but they are still paying off the mortgage, so its the older and wrinkly brigade, who are not young and agile who have the money and decide what to order on the new boat. the rest of us are buying someone else's choices.

Pete

[double u]

experience? as I wrote: 3 boats on the base, me 3 years basemanager, 15 to +20 weeks charter per year.
nearly dddw with the sail being pressed against the rig "the sail comes down"?? not on the sailtainers anyway. & if the angle mast>boom was only slightly off the luff would make a mess of itself. to boot the sail was quite delicate, small, light tablings. on a Bav 390 we had the travellercar torn off when the customers gave the boom just a little bit too much slack when reefing.
I'm not phantasizing & while I hadn't been out in the conditions mentioned in my previous post, those "peculiarities" where quite apparent when we took the boats out for a quick spin in the bay to check everything out.
with in-mast we had no problems at all, only one jam in 3 years on a behind-the-mast Bamar system (charterers fault though)
but everybody to their liking, of course! I presume with the sailing-style of the majority of cruisers heading up to reef the main is no big bother. all others are welcome to try going downwind in 25-30 - I wait for their reports!

[Hobie_ind]

Originally Posted by double u

I presume with the sailing-style of the majority of cruisers heading up to reef the main is no big bother. all others are welcome to try going downwind in 25-30 - I wait for their reports!

I think you're talking about boom furling systems, but it's unclear still.

In 15,000+ offshore miles with ours, we probably furled our in-mast main and mizzen in hundreds of times downwind. Headed up the first few months until we had a good understanding of how everything worked and had experimented a bit with the system, then I don't remember altering course once after that. One trick I used was to travel the sail in a bit. That brought the majority of the sail off the spreaders and reduced drag considerably when furling, taking a lot of the load off the furling systems.

One point though. People often worry about the challenges of furling mainsails downwind in storm conditions. We found it the exception. Typically we reefed early with approaching weather (one of the reasons I like radar at night). In-mast furling made it easy to be conservative as it was a 30 second job to bring it in and a 30 second job to let it back out if it didn't build as much as expected.

Additionally, with a ketch, I typically found the main was generally fully furled by 25-30 kts and we were running on furled genoa and a furled mizzen for balance at hull speed, so all the worry about the main in heavy conditions was for naught as it's largely away in big winds downwind.

[double u]

yes, in-boom!
let me attenuate my damnation a tiny bit:
if the thing jams - at least you can get the main down.
on an in-mast system I would have a sort of "sickle" that I can pull up on a spare halyard to cut the sail off in case it jams in a dangerous situation

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

I think you're talking about boom furling systems, but it's unclear still.

In 15,000+ offshore miles with ours, we probably furled our in-mast main and mizzen in hundreds of times downwind. Headed up the first few months until we had a good understanding of how everything worked and had experimented a bit with the system, then I don't remember altering course once after that. One trick I used was to travel the sail in a bit. That brought the majority of the sail off the spreaders and reduced drag considerably when furling, taking a lot of the load off the furling systems.

One point though. People often worry about the challenges of furling mainsails downwind in storm conditions. We found it the exception. Typically we reefed early with approaching weather (one of the reasons I like radar at night). In-mast furling made it easy to be conservative as it was a 30 second job to bring it in and a 30 second job to let it back out if it didn't build as much as expected.

Additionally, with a ketch, I typically found the main was generally fully furled by 25-30 kts and we were running on furled genoa and a furled mizzen for balance at hull speed, so all the worry about the main in heavy conditions was for naught as it's largely away in big winds downwind.

I was going to mention Amels, serious offshore yachts with all roller furling, how many of these are circumnavigating every year with no jams? and this is with electric furlers. Inmast furling is tried an true.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Ken, when you say "relieving some of the pressure" do you do this by just backing the outhaul off little by little? I often turn ddw and use the rolls (less pressure) to furl.

Also I think double u is referring to in boom furling, from what I know these need to be head to wind.

Generally, we reef well before the rig is being over-powered. But occasionally when the wind picks up suddenly, we'll turn into the wind but not quite all the way to furl the main. The sail will still have some wind in it and not flapping about at all, but the vast majority of the pressure will be off.... then it's easier to furl and there won't be as much force pulling on the outhaul.

Right on DoubleU, I gathered that from his next post. But the same technique I just described can also be done with boom furling, as we did this on our Hunter.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, what would you expect? If I don't like furling mainsails, why in the hell would I buy one?

I see this argument all the time here on CF... IMO I do not have to own an item to have a well supported opinion about them. Observation of the world around me has helped make all sorts of decisions without purchase, and understanding some of the theory adds to the opinion's validity.

On the other hand, I don't go around slanging other folks' boats or equipment unless asked for an opinion!

Jim

Here, here...

My favourite response to this type of comment is...

"For some, a camel may be a prized possession. I have never owned a camel. Still, I am 100% confident that I do not want or need a camel."

Whenever one asks opinions on anything, there is a phenomenon that has to be taken into account.

Human nature dictates a desire for responders to gain acceptance.

In other words, we naturally want people to agree with us. It makes us feel better about our decisions.

So people who make a decision to do something others may consider undesirable will tend to over-justify that decision, in an attempt to gain acceptance. (Even when they know deep down, it really was a bad decision, they need to save face, as perceived by others.)

Another aspect of human nature is a desire to be perceived as "thrifty" and "smart", and to be able to justify expense.

Even when spending large sums of money, there is a desire for the person to "prove" to any naysayers that it was a "great deal".

When purchasing a new boat, the cost of adding in-mast furling is quite significant, but the incremental cost on the total purchase price is relatively low.

Especially in a time of low interest rates, these are easily justified by the thought that, "Well, its an extra $20K, but it is only $160 / month more (even though that is over 20 years), so what the hell?"
A few years down the road, when I tell the owner that the bill for a minor repair is $160, some go out of their mind at the cost, especially when they only have $100 in their pocket, because they just made another boat payment.

This is human nature. Justify your own decision vehemently, chastise others for differing opinion vehemently, to convince others (hopefully) on the fence, you and only you are correct.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Here, here...

My favourite response to this type of comment is...

"For some, a camel may be a prized possession. I have never owned a camel. Still, I am 100% confident that I do not want or need a camel."

Whenever one asks opinions on anything, there is a phenomenon that has to be taken into account.

Human nature dictates a desire for responders to gain acceptance.

In other words, we naturally want people to agree with us. It makes us feel better about our decisions.

So people who make a decision to do something others may consider undesirable will tend to over-justify that decision, in an attempt to gain acceptance. (Even when they know deep down, it really was a bad decision, they need to save face, as perceived by others.)

Another aspect of human nature is a desire to be perceived as "thrifty" and "smart", and to be able to justify expense.

Even when spending large sums of money, there is a desire for the person to "prove" to any naysayers that it was a "great deal".

When purchasing a new boat, the cost of adding in-mast furling is quite significant, but the incremental cost on the total purchase price is relatively low.

Especially in a time of low interest rates, these are easily justified by the thought that, "Well, its an extra $20K, but it is only $160 / month more (even though that is over 20 years), so what the hell?"
A few years down the road, when I tell the owner that the bill for a minor repair is $160, some go out of their mind at the cost, especially when they only have $100 in their pocket, because they just made another boat payment.

This is human nature. Justify your own decision vehemently, chastise others for differing opinion vehemently, to convince others (hopefully) on the fence, you and only you are correct.

Who talking about camels? Who said anything about needing or wanting a inmast furler? The Op is harshly criticising them, several sailors with plenty of experience have answered by saying they aren't as bad as some want to make out! they aren't trying to sell them to others or say mine is better than yours or your an idiot if you don't have one, they are responding to the Op's branding of them being no good.

I've personally stated I would probably prefer a slab reefing main but have also stated that after sailing my inmast across an ocean this year the criticisms are exaggerated and usually by people that have limited experience with using them (I was one of them).

In regards to defending ones choice "because I own one" well this could also apply to many of your own arguments on Cf! You passionately defend your choices, does your previous post then suggest your reason for doing so is ego and not critical thinking and experience? eg. your argument regarding the smart gauge, are you just defending the way you measure soc because that's the way you do it? Can't have it both way.

My point is when you have some sailors with some genuine real sea time experience using a piece of kit and offering their learnt opinion, do you think it's right just to label their views as self serving egotistical ? If so it applies to you also.

Ps. I agree with your sg views BTW.

[El Pinguino]

In Pto Williams just now there are 25 yachts ( 4 in commision.. the rest laid up..)... only one has in mast furling.

I have only seen one jammed and shredded in mast furling main... a 3 year old setup on a Moody 40 something.

Do I have to be eaten by a crocodile to know that I should avoid crocodiles?

Nope.... seeing ( or even just hearing of ) someone else being eaten by a crocodile is enough.....

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

In Pto Williams just now there are 25 yachts ( 4 in commision.. the rest laid up..)... only one has in mast furling.

I have only seen one jammed and shredded in mast furling main... a 3 year old setup on a Moody 40 something.

Do I have to be eaten by a crocodile to know that I should avoid crocodiles?

Nope.... seeing ( or even just hearing of ) someone else being eaten by a crocodile is enough.....

Seriously, a crocodile analogy?

I saw a yacht that lost its rig this year, don't need to own one to know they all lose their rigs, only a matter of time, better keep away from those sailboats!!!

I saw a catamaran capsize (actually it was a photo) better not get a cat they all capsize.... it's just logical really.

I saw a sunk mono.............

[J Clark H356]

I’ve got 15 years experience with in-mast furling in many different wind conditions and wouldn’t have anything else. My sail is stretched some now and I got be little more careful when furling to avoid a jam, but it is easy to do so. You have to have the boom angle correct and keep tension on the outhaul when furling in. A good sailor pays attention to those thing and avoids trouble.

For those that don’t like the idea, don’t get it.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by J Clark H356

I’ve got 15 years experience with in-mast furling in many different wind conditions and wouldn’t have anything else. My sail is stretched some now and I got be little more careful when furling to avoid a jam, but it is easy to do so. You have to have the boom angle correct and keep tension on the outhaul when furling in. A good sailor pays attention to those thing and avoids trouble.

For those that don’t like the idea, don’t get it.

Camel and crocodile analogies VS experience... the winner is?