Spectra rigging? What do you think

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

And stainless is very very resilient to the knocks and accidents which can happen in the cruising life, dyneema is decent in this regards but just nowhere near what stainless is (which is why after giving it a trial the racing community banned dyneema lifelines - agree or disagree with that decision, the fact was pretty clear dyneema WAS more vulnerable than SS).

Dyneema (or specifically HMPE) is now permitted again by the World Sailing OSR for lifelines with a specific (but vague) stipulation that it is protected from chafe. I assume the ISAF mirrors them as well.

Not sure why they flipped back on that but I expect there was a lot of push back from highly competitive boats based on the weight issue.

[double u]

finally the voice of reason!!! (& the first time I see windage mentioned!)

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Dyneema (or specifically HMPE) is now permitted again by the World Sailing OSR for lifelines with a specific (but vague) stipulation that it is protected from chafe. I assume the ISAF mirrors them as well.

Not sure why they flipped back on that but I expect there was a lot of push back from highly competitive boats based on the weight issue.

No, not correct - for life lines - SS is currently required (for WS racing) for monohull cat 0,1,2,3 (eg essentially all mono's except daysailors). HMPE is allowed on mono cat 4 and multihull (the theory behind this is that you don't have crew hiking out on multi lifelines, so their absolute security is less important).

They allowed dyneema for a short period on all vessels (when I wrote the best practice working document for ISAF), then they had several which failed (all on monos) and they reverted it to ban dyneema for mono's (cat 0-3). Which is where it current stands.

see section 3.14.6 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...#91;23449].pdf

There is a provision for textile lashings in place of turnbuckles on the end of the SS lifelines, but they are required to be replaced every year

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

No, not correct - for life lines - SS is currently required (for WS racing) for monohull cat 0,1,2,3 (eg essentially all mono's except daysailors). HMPE is allowed on mono cat 4 and multihull (the theory behind this is that you don't have crew hiking out on multi lifelines, so their absolute security is less important).

They allowed dyneema for a short period on all vessels (when I wrote the best practice working document for ISAF), then they had several which failed (all on monos) and they reverted it to ban dyneema for mono's (cat 0-3). Which is where it current stands.

see section 3.14.6 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...#91;23449].pdf

There is a provision for textile lashings in place of turnbuckles on the end of the SS lifelines, but they are required to be replaced every year

Oops I missed the first column. :P

I remember the back and forth because I was a safety officer for a few ocean races and there was a lot of chatter about whether it was, or would be allowed. I recall the Naval Academy weighed in after some testing and announced they would not be allowed on their boats but that might have been hearsay. But I thought it had swung the other way and they were back in, for the regs at least.

I was personally never fond of them because while the "hand" was better that little bit of extra stiffness of SS was a little more confidence inspiring.

[estarzinger]

^^ BTW, Colligo Marine's website is absolutely incorrect/misleading on this lifeline point.

[KeelMe]

When I replaced my lifelines a few years ago I chose grey Amsteel Blue with CS Johnson spliced line fittings. It looks great and has proven to be tough but the first year those things stretched and stretched and stretched until I had to re-splice the ends because the turnbuckle were all the way in. When I re-spliced I made them substantially shorter and then stretched them with a block and tackle led to a winch. They have hardly moved since. No chafing problems yet but we don't have people hanging off our rail either. We get regular compliments on how nice and well fit our lifelines are.

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

A mate with gal rigging tells me there are problems accessing good gal wire these days.
Do you have any good sources?

Think 'Industrial rigging', 'Industrial lifting' - I've never had any problem getting good gal. wire, hadn't even thought that might be a thing.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

A mate with gal rigging tells me there are problems accessing good gal wire these days.
Do you have any good sources?

My understanding is the problem with galvanized stuff is that it was traditionally 'hot dipped' much is now elctro or spray plated. Both of these can lead to a significantly thinner coat. Also hot dip fused the zinc to the steel due to the heat in the galvanizing bath. Neither of the new processes do.
I have had anchors and chains hot dipped and it was completely successful. I have also used none hot dipped shackles that where rusted in a few months.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by charliehows

Interesting – a leap from a modern and tested (and thereby shown to be wanting) form of rigging (stainless steel) to an ancient form (rope, but of a new and timewise untested type) without the least consideration of the intermediate iteration – galvanised steel wire, which material is cheap, reliable, obtainable anywhere, easily applied using clamps and well and truly tested over more than a century and a half of use. I'm yet to be convinced that this new generation of rope has the 'legs' to justify the sort of expense to replace s/s, irrelevant in my case 'cos I'm still using galvanised steel on both the KISS and 'if it aint broke...' principles.

I do understand that it does take a bit to wrap your mind around the new role materials, and it is hard to mentally let steel wire rigging go. But in all actually it's ONLY been around a century. Dyneema and dynadux rope isn't that much of a youngster either. It was commercialized in the late 70's and has been heavily used in commercial fishing, logging and mining by the 90's. It's cheap, lightweight, and abrasion resistant, very useful for those industries. Commercial Marine had been using it for tow lines at least since 2000, as I dealt with tugs that used it then. It's only recently been noticed for standing and running rigging, but even then I was reading about Dyna fix and soft shackles 10 years ago approximately. Today even big names in rigging like Brian Toss recommend it, mountain climbers use it religiously, and you will be hard pressed to walk through a sailing hardware store where a good percentage of blocks and other hardware use dyneema strips or lashing. In short, this stuff is highly tested, reliable and obtainable at this point.

Its as inexpensive and as strong or stronger than wire rope the same size. I replaced my lifelines with it in 2013 and it roughly cost the same or just slightly more than replacing with wire. Best thing is is pretty UV stable and it's still going good, and looks awesome.

I have been using it more and more on my boat (42ft cutter). Splicing this stuff is super easy and quick. Now that its becoming mainstream, people are experimenting and rapidly advancing the uses for this. Funny how deadeyes and the like have returned as low friction rings. Soft shackles are the bee's knees, attach your sheets with one or splice it into the end of your halyard and you no longer have to worry about a hard metal shackle singing your gelcoat, wood, boat, skull ect and I can make one in 20 min or less. I use the L36 advanced sodft shackle, as it's easier to use fyi. I also use the L36 hybrid knot splice for the end of my halyards.

So far I've replaced most of my halyards with 1/4" amsteel that I partially covered using the outer cover of some 3/8" stayset (so it's a stripped halyard) plus I tipped the end with 3ft of cover and used a hybrid halyard knot splice. I replaced my lifelines, top one is 5/8" grey amsteel as it's easier to hold in your hand, bottom one is 5mm dynexdux (I seen a similar look on a tall ship, with the lashings this really changes the look of the boat). Soft shackles everywhere, my flag halyards are 1/8" amsteel spliced as a big loop. I recently experimented with two of my mooring lines, spliced infinite loops in 3/8" amsteel to the cleat on the pier and used three strand from the loop to the boat ( I want to see how abrasion resistant a composite mooring line can be). And I'm just getting started with antal low friction rings, $5 low friction rings and soft schackles or loops. I may be pulling my mast if I have to truck my boat in a year or two so I have so far resisted changing my rigging. Old sailing stuff coming back, but this stuff is easier and faster to splice than old fiber rigging or steel wire. There isn't any way I could sit on my deck drink a beer and complete an infinite loop splice from steel wire in 20 min.

I have spliced wire rope, been involved with poured wire rope connector ends and slushed miles of steel cable with waterproof grease - I hate it! Wire burrs ripped up your hands. Constsnt rust and corrosion issues. Riggers are expensive. I wouldnt use clamps for anything critical either. I have been in the maritime industry for close to 20 years now, and while I was a little hesitant, I'm all on board now. I can keep a spool or two down below and have a new line whipped up in less than a day. I can splice double raid but dyneema is so much easier, I rarely do. I spliced a VPC halyard for a friend the other day and it took a good chunk of the day to get the cover milked back even beating the crap out of it with a mallet, and I had blisters all over my hands. I splice two of my halyards in the same time and I had to milk the cover from double braid onto it to make it a double braid line.

The whole someone can cut it with a knife issue - in theory yes someone could come along and saw on a stay for a while and cut it. They would absolutely have to try to do it however, it's pretty tough stuff. It is easier to cut under tension but still this would only work if they had a super sharp knife, and they won't get a second one, thier knife is done at that point. I use ceramic (too expensive and eventually gets dull) or high carbon razor blades ( not the cheap razor blades, but seems to be the most effective cost effective way). Even with a fresh razer blade I get maybe 2-3 cuts and I'm sawing by the second cut. This is with small 1/4 line. 3/8" or 5/8" amsteel and I barely get 1 cut per blade end. I haven't seen anyone running around cutting fiber rigging, nor have I seen anyone using lock cutters cutting steel rigging. If your really worried use double braid dynexdux. Regardless I could have a new one spliced up the next day.

Let go of steel wire, it's yesterday tech! Pull out your antique knot book and return to the millenia old but reborn sailing with fiber

V/r

Robert

[alaskanviking]

I remember seeing something about this. Maybe a post from Bryan toss rigging forums.

It was ok to use bronze hanks on synthetic, as they are low abrasion and slick enough that the bronze doesn't wear on it. But you had to ensure your old bronze Hanks were not scored and jagged from use on the old stainless stay. I think it was recommended that they use new Hanks just to make sure

This is the same line as using synthetic loops or soft shackles on stainless stays. Not a lot of wear do the slickness of the synthetics but a burr or jagged areas would damage the dyneema.

I would check with Brian toss on his forum, as he is a rigger and could give a definitive answer for peace of mind

V/r

Robert

[charliehows]

I'll stick with gal. - cheap, easy to get, proven reliable...but...horses for courses - i might replace my emergency rigging wire with one of the new synthetics just because it would be easier to use for running repairs while at sea...also I've been using dyneema as a boom brake (small gauge fits my ladder style brake and it's slippery) and it does seem to be quite UV resistant.

[Dave_S]

Thanks all for your opinions, for and against.

I'm going to replace my prodder stays with synthetic to see how it works. I'm looking for a supplier who can supply good advice as well as good price and service.

I'm going to DIY.

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a supplier.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a supplier.

I don't know the Brisbane scene, but if you want advice - do you have a rigger experienced with Vendee or Volvo boats around? Someone with real experience there would be up on how to do Dyneema properly. There are unfortunately a lot of people without that sort of world-class experience who say they know all about it but in fact do not.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Thanks all for your opinions, for and against.

I'm going to replace my prodder stays with synthetic to see how it works. I'm looking for a supplier who can supply good advice as well as good price and service.

I'm going to DIY.

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a supplier.

Talk to these Dave Allen at International Rope Braid. A lot of Australian riggers source from him.



Welcome to International Rope Braid



They're not far from Brisbane: 5/ 14 Technology Dr, Arundel

[andypag]

Originally Posted by Pauls

For galvanized wire rope, Performance Wire Rope 713-466-6500 has galvanized 1x19 in all sizes up to 1" dia. They are a manufacturer and all their products are made in the USA.

What are the advantages and risks of galvanized over stainless?