Spin w/Top Down Furler or Code 0 on Free-Flying Furler

[sailjumanji]

We are having a Seawind 1160 Lite (38 ft cat) built. Sail inventory decided so far is main and jib - which is predominately 90% of our usage. Looking for one additional sail to be used when my wife and I go cruising (Texas to Bahamas, and back), especially to help with light air reaching thru downwind running. Boat will have a bowsprit. Our last Seawind had an asymmetric and symmetric spinnaker, both with socks, and we never used them due to the hassle of rigging (and didn't have sprit). Am looking for something easy to put up and down. Symmetric spin will be about 1,100 ft2. Interested in others experiences using top-down furler, as this might be neat system to have, keeping sail in long bag on bow until needed to be deployed. Have read a lot of bad accounts though on double wraps, needing to follow exact procedures, etc. Wonder if anyone is using without issue. (FYI, for background, we have about a dozen years of racing trimarans and dousing 800+ ft2 spins, so not inexperienced. But something more controlled in high wind situations is the hope.)

Other alternative we are looking into is a cruising Code 0, deployed on a free-flying continuous furler. It appears these have more trouble free furling, but give up a lot of sail area due to straight luff, etc. (Maybe down to 800 ft2) Also have read some account of Dimension Polyant CZ sailcloth being very UV sensitive. Also much more expensive than nylon, but OTOH the furler would be cheaper.

Anyone using either of these sail/furler combo's? Especially in similar size and on a cat? Would appreciate any relevant input. THANKS

[barnakiel]

These are not alternatives.

Long luff symmetric or assy- on a top-down is a broad reaching and downwind kit.

A Code 0 on a regular (torque rope) furler style is an upwind kit.

As most boats tend to go just OK upwind even in light winds but are reduced to pigs in light conditions downwind, you may opt for an asy- on a top-down up first. For your boat should go upwind just fine under her main and jib only, even in light winds.

We have used both sails and furling styles and imho a Code 0 on an (anti-) torque rope furler is problem free while top-down plus an assy- tend to wrap now and then.

Cheers,
b.

[shaunno71]

We’ve recently added an FFR (Flat Furling Reacher) from OneSails to our Corsair 24 tri. It’s on a continuous line top down Selden furler with a torque rope inside a sleeve in the luff.
Think of a Code-0 / screecher shaped sail, but cut from lighter weight spinnaker-type cloth. The angles it can sail are truly impressive in light air (<10 knots). Can go both higher and lower than the screecher it replaced. (We still carry an asymmetric kite for racing as it can go deeper with more power than the FFR.)
For cruising you might consider one of these because of the ease of furling (the lightweight cloth makes the loads quite manageable when furling and it can be brought in under moderate load).

[shaunno71]

Originally Posted by shaunno71

We’ve recently added an FFR (Flat Furling Reacher) from OneSails to our Corsair 24 tri. It’s on a continuous line top down Selden furler with a torque rope inside a sleeve in the luff.
Think of a Code-0 / screecher shaped sail, but cut from lighter weight spinnaker-type cloth. The angles it can sail are truly impressive in light air (<10 knots). Can go both higher and lower than the screecher it replaced. (We still carry an asymmetric kite for racing as it can go deeper with more power than the FFR.)
For cruising you might consider one of these because of the ease of furling (the lightweight cloth makes the loads quite manageable when furling and it can be brought in under moderate load). Attachment 173633

(mine is the blue one on the left, another boat at our club has the yellow one on the right of this photo). Also worth noting that when i bought the boat, it had a top-down furling asymmetric kite - was terrible. Often double wrapped when furling, tangled, etc. A few times had to drop whole thing on deck and untangle back on mooring. Tried lots of tweaks and adjustments to make it work but eventually gave up and got a standard asym. I wouldn’t want to be in a cruising boat trying to furl similar with a squall approaching - false sense of security as it should furl quickly and perfectly every time, but in my experience it usually failed when you most needed it to work properly!

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

These are not alternatives.

Long luff symmetric or assy- on a top-down is a broad reaching and downwind kit.

A Code 0 on a regular (torque rope) furler style is an upwind kit.

As most boats tend to go just OK upwind even in light winds but are reduced to pigs in light conditions downwind, you may opt for an asy- on a top-down up first. For your boat should go upwind just fine under her main and jib only, even in light winds.

We have used both sails and furling styles and imho a Code 0 on an (anti-) torque rope furler is problem free while top-down plus an assy- tend to wrap now and then.

Cheers,
b.

I understand that some of the sailmakers are pushing the "cruising" Code 0 to have a wider range of AWA than the traditional sail. And I think you hit our need on the nose - the boat is probably going to do fine upwind and reaching, but deeper reach and run it is going to be slow. (Probably same as the SW1000 we owned previous.)

Soooo, I guess the question becomes is there a hybrid sail that we can run on a "anti torque rope" furler that is going to be flat enough for light air reaching, but large enough to slack off the luff and the sheet to get moving downwind. (And yes, I know it won't be as good downwind as an A3.) Maybe that is a screacher, but I was hoping for something more downwind capable.

Finally, all of this is to avoid a top-down furler. Does someone make one that works better than the rest? And when one "wraps", how is that cleared and how big a problem is it? I suspect it has to be dropped to the deck, but OTOH the front deck on the Seawind 1160 is pretty large.

THANKS for the feedback and info. Really appreciate it. I'm trying to learn here, and make good decisions.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by shaunno71

(mine is the blue one on the left, another boat at our club has the yellow one on the right of this photo). Also worth noting that when i bought the boat, it had a top-down furling asymmetric kite - was terrible. Often double wrapped when furling, tangled, etc. A few times had to drop whole thing on deck and untangle back on mooring. Tried lots of tweaks and adjustments to make it work but eventually gave up and got a standard asym. I wouldn’t want to be in a cruising boat trying to furl similar with a squall approaching - false sense of security as it should furl quickly and perfectly every time, but in my experience it usually failed when you most needed it to work properly!

Yeah, it will always fail when its most inconvenient or dangerous!

I'm familiar with Corsair tris. We owned an F-24 Mk II and a Corsair 28R for eleven years, and was very active on the racing circuit and Class organization. When screachers first came out, they were cut pretty full and just for reaching. Then Smyth started making them very flat, and people were using them as upwind sails in light wind. We used to really load them up reaching in pretty strong wind.

Whose furler did you have problems with? Sad because that is a pretty small sail to have to furl. (My wife and I used to race our Mk II double-handed, she steered, and I handle the other sails myself. The Mk II sail was small enough to do that without furler or sock.)

Interesting that your Code 0 has a greater range of AWA than your screacher. I have seen some made from nylon (spin material). I wonder if for a boat our size, we can get high enough weight nylon to work. I know it is going to have more stretch.

[GALAWA]

My catamaran type PRIVILEGE 435, some 43' long, is equiped with a Code D made by French sail-maker DELTA VOILE.
[URL="http://deltavoiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Voiles-de-Portant-cruising-CODE-D.pdf"]
I, and all my crews who have discovered it , are extremely pleased with both the performance and ease of use of this sail.
Fundamentally it is an asymmetric spinnaker which furls around its free luff rope.
I can tack it on the bowsprit, hoist it, unfurl it, furl it and bring it down single handed.
Thanks to the slightly 'hollow' profile of the luff,
It is more stable than a standard asymmetric spinnaker: i.e.: When luffing to much or back-winded, it deflates along the luff progressively, it does not collapse and does not require bearing away more than resuming normal course to fully inflate again. Fine when under autopilot in wind mode.

It flies well from 65° till 150° from the bow AWA.
And it is stable when goose-winged with the main sail at 180° AWA.

I would not have another down wind sail.

[SaltyMetals]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Yeah, it will always fail when its most inconvenient or dangerous!

I'm familiar with Corsair tris. We owned an F-24 Mk II and a Corsair 28R for eleven years, and was very active on the racing circuit and Class organization. When screachers first came out, they were cut pretty full and just for reaching. Then Smyth started making them very flat, and people were using them as upwind sails in light wind. We used to really load them up reaching in pretty strong wind.

Whose furler did you have problems with? Sad because that is a pretty small sail to have to furl. (My wife and I used to race our Mk II double-handed, she steered, and I handle the other sails myself. The Mk II sail was small enough to do that without furler or sock.)

Interesting that your Code 0 has a greater range of AWA than your screacher. I have seen some made from nylon (spin material). I wonder if for a boat our size, we can get high enough weight nylon to work. I know it is going to have more stretch.

I hv never had a cat but previously had a 40ft Beneteau w both assy spi and cruising chute in socks. No bowsprit. The socks are already a bit problematic but bighest risk was the downwind sail wrapping around the furled genoa because the tack attachment was so close to tack of the genoa.

I now have a Jeanneau 43ds (yes a mono) and added a selden sprit and Karver top-down continuous line furler with a North gennaker. Will work v well in range 90-155 AWA. It would probably work at 80 AWA If i tightened the strop at the tack (bowsprit has a hole at fwd end so the strop can be adjustable) but i like to keep things simple and work with a fixed strop.

Never had any trouble furling, but occasionally the torque rop fights back and when un furling there is a reverse wrap of about 5 turns on bottom 1/3 rd of the sail. Have tried various things but have not yet figured out how to avoid it.

In conclusion i find the top-down furling system much better than a sock.
Andrew

[Ferrari]

We’ve recently switched from a Sock to Top Down asymmetrical on my cutter rigged sloop. Using the heaviest gear for both torque rope and furler (GX25 I think) from Selden.
Love it and would never go back!
The flexibility and simplicity of use is amazing, it cuts motoring to a minimum and is far safer to use on a fore deck than a sock.
I’m told correct tension of the torque rope is critical so have always held that in mind. Must be straight. No bows.
Hope this helps you.
F

[LeeV]

We *love* our Code 0, and while (as stated above) it's not the same as other sails mentioned, it's a compromise and easy to sail solution in many cases.

If you were racing, i'd tell you to get them all; for cruising, the Code 0 wins hands down (imho).

Congrats!

[davecalvert]

We have had an asymmetrical spinnaker with ATN sleeve on our 43 ft cat. It was too much hassle to rig for short runs so, rarely used. The top down furlers work OK and with less work to set up and douse but, still not the most user friendly for a coupe as crew. We now have a 46 ft cat and plan to install a bow sprit and Code 0 on a continuous like furler.
We do make multihull sails and have been recommending the Code 0 as the most useful third sail. This can be used on angles as low as 130 apparent with the main or down wind with no main and either by it self or wing and wing with the genoa or jib.
These are not the best down wind sails as the area is less than an asymmetrical spinnaker but, more powerful on reaches per sq. ft. On light air reaches, they can really add speed reducing engine hours and with the furler, very easy to deal with. If made with heavy enough sail cloth, they can have a light weight UV strip and be left up furled for lengths of time.

These sails would use the spinnaker points of attachment, the halyard, tack on a bow sprit, and sheet blocks aft, and trim around the shrouds. Materials range from nylon to Code 0 cloth and light dacrons.

[sailjumanji]

David, how does this compare to a screacher? Longer foot/LP? Fuller?

[cuffy]

I have true code 0 that can get to about 45 apparent in light winds and gives us a lot of extra area.
I also find if tacked on to the windward bow we can get quite low with it but to goosewing it does need pole to hold it out. This is obviously bottom up furling and present no problems what's ever.
Be aware of the loads with wind in front of the beam as they can increase quickly.
I also carry a couple of asymetrics on top down furler and use them in light winds when easy to furl.

[davecalvert]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

David, how does this compare to a screacher? Longer foot/LP? Fuller?

The Code 0 will have a bit longer luff, quite a bit longer foot, and a fuller shape compared to a screacher that trims inside the shrouds. Areas, in most cases, will be about 30% or more larger than a screacher. Code 0s work especially well on cats with small self tacking jibs.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by GALAWA

My catamaran type PRIVILEGE 435, some 43' long, is equiped with a Code D made by French sail-maker DELTA VOILE.
[URL="http://deltavoiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Voiles-de-Portant-cruising-CODE-D.pdf"]
I, and all my crews who have discovered it , are extremely pleased with both the performance and ease of use of this sail.
Fundamentally it is an asymmetric spinnaker which furls around its free luff rope.
I can tack it on the bowsprit, hoist it, unfurl it, furl it and bring it down single handed.
Thanks to the slightly 'hollow' profile of the luff,
It is more stable than a standard asymmetric spinnaker: i.e.: When luffing to much or back-winded, it deflates along the luff progressively, it does not collapse and does not require bearing away more than resuming normal course to fully inflate again. Fine when under autopilot in wind mode.

It flies well from 65° till 150° from the bow AWA.
And it is stable when goose-winged with the main sail at 180° AWA.

I would not have another down wind sail.

Thanks, I have seen reference to those. That's a huge range of AWA.