Square-Rigging System for Sail Boat - Info, Please

[filaviasail]

I understand nobody knows about a kit for this sistem, i know the stress on the mast will be different from a draditional sail, i only serch and want to understand in wich case this sistem can be istalled.

If sombody know of this kit please replay, tanks to all.

[markpierce]

I'd think twin triangular (jib) sails extended with spinnaker poles would be much simpler, practical, and consistent with stresses your boat was made to handle. Also, they would not tend to depress the bow(s) like a square rig would/could.

[beau]

Square sails were used because they didn't know any better in those days. They believed the wind pushed the boat along.
We now know that it is the low pressure behind the sail that sucks the boat along (airofoil technology)
However I have found that the Oceanic Lateen Triangular Sail may offer the best performance /per sq meter, plus the maximum sail area is high up where the higher wind speed is located.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by markpierce

I'd think twin triangular (jib) sails extended with spinnaker poles would be much simpler, practical, and consistent with stresses your boat was made to handle. Also, they would not tend to depress the bow(s) like a square rig would/could.

!!!

Twin jibs, esp. if they can be run with their luffs along the mast and the clews poled out slightly forward are a very, very neat way to go downwind:
- rolling is reduced,
- self steering is simplified,
- spilling gusts is possible,
- dropping the sails is a breeze.

Unfortunately, very few boats are set up for this.

b.

[marujo.sortudo]

Actually, square sails were used because they did know better in those days. Prior to the advent of modern sailing and rigging materials, individual sails had to be kept to a reasonably small size and, sailing ships that were used for commerce, war, etc. were much bigger. Beyond that, ships designed for square sails could actually sail quite well upwind (I'm not talking about boats with a single square sail here); although, not as well as a Marconi rig. Of course, this hardly mattered, since as we all know, the easiest way to cross an ocean is to follow the trades and traditionally rigged boats were excellent at this and FAST (I'm talking clippers here, not longboats.) Every sailing rig that's ever been used in the world has some advantages and disadvantages and all of them were designed for the job they did and built with materials available at the time. The reason that most boats you see today are Marconi sloops/cutters and fly spinnakers is largely because of racing rules. Of course, because of those same racing rules, Marconi rigs have had more technological development in recent decades which translates to a better understanding of how to optimize modern materials to their use. Many other rigs actually have advantages that would be interesting to most cruisers.

There are actually a good number of cruisers out there who have used a square sail as a downwind sail. If you have an interest in making your own sail, it can certainly be a very cheap alternative to a spinnaker or twins. They are also very easy to rig up for self-steering downwind, but so are twins. On Tom Steele's Tahiti ketch Adios, he sailed 30,000 miles under his square sail while sailing around the world twice. In Self-Steering without a Windvane, there are some explanations of the rig, and a picture of one rigged up on a little "plastic classic" Marconi sloop. Of course, if you want to do this, I doubt they'll be any kits and you'll have to gather information from many sources. The Sailmaker's Apprentice can tell you how to make a square sail, but you'll need to look elsewhere to decide how to rig it. I'd talk to a rigger that is familiar with both traditional and modern systems (Brion Toss, perhaps) and see what they think about your particular boat.

If you have a sailing dinghy or can borrow a friends, you could probably experiment with some rigging options on a small scale there (although, all the lines associated with the square rig will make a mess of the dinghy...)

[SabreKai]

Its a pity I tossed them out when I moved but there was a short bit in one Cruising World magazine from the end 70s or early 80s about a fellow sailing San Francisco bay who made up a rig for his sloop using a big blue tarp on a yard. From what I remember, the tarp was attached to the yard, which was hoisted up the forestay. There was a block with a halliard somewhere on the mast above the spreaders. The halliard was also connected to the yard, and kept tensioned. I expect there must have been a downhaul attached as well otherwise the yard would tend to rise up until the halliard was at an angle. The halliard was there to transfer the load from the forestay to the mast.

The yard was controlled with lines running down to the cockpit as well as sheets at the lower corners. There was a photo of the arrangement as he sailed down wind. I believe he used an old spinaker pole as a yard and he had no spinaker. I think the tarp was something like 10-12 foot by 15 or something like that. A tall narrow square sail. I also can't remember how big the boat was but for some reason I think it was in the 24-26foot range. So that would give him about 150-170 sq ft of sail. Not great but not too shabby either if you didnt have anything else.

Poor mans down wind rig. It seemed to work ok for him.

Sabre

[Pyrate]

If you're set on the square rig, maybe try contacting these guys. They've created their own roller-furling square sail on their schooner. SQUARE SAILS. It would definitely turn some heads, and probably be rather efficient if sailing in the trades.

[Snowpetrel]

The Square rig is an almost perfectly evolved rig for getting big heavy ships from A to B in open water. The Hermaphrodite Brigantine I did 10000 ocean miles on showed me that in most cases the squares were much much easier to handle with a small crew than the fore and aft mains'l. One watch could handle the squares, All hands where needed to raise, reef or drop the main.

I also sailed on a 1600's era vessel called "Duyfken" She was a fantastic ship that sailed and pointed better than any other traditional square rigger I have sailed on. The big squares without clewlines or buntlines made her harder to handle than a more modern square rigger, but boy, she can sail.

Anyway, enough rambling about how good square riggers are. back to yachts.

We had a square topsail on my parents gaff ketch for a while. it was a very powerful sail that really improved her performance on any point except hard on the wind. It also reduced rolling, acting as a lifting sail. In the end the admiral veto'ed it due to a few minor handling issues, like it not coming down once. in fairness it was very powerful and hard to set and hand. probably a dangerous sail if not handled with prudence, something my father had not yet mastered...

A friend, Joe Davison sailed "Seabird" around the world in the 80's or so. Seabird was a 30 odd foot cutter and on he perfected a square rig setup for the trades. I think he wrote an article for sea spray magazine about his rig.

I saw the set up in action on his 28 foot "Sail Ho". It had a short yard hoisted to just under the spreaders and a tall narrow square tacked to the deck edge near the chainplates. Above this he set a triangular Raffee. This is pretty standard stuff, what he did differently was to not brace the set up, reasoning that he would just drop the set up and go back to fore and aft rig when the wind came around near the beam. To add sail area he added some triangular flaps to the side of the lower square (the Course), like little jibs. The whole setup was made from cheap tarps and a curtain rail for a yard.

I saw him set it and use it, It set quickly and the rather tubby but well designed little "Sail Ho" took off, I couldn't keep up with him on my folkboat with the MPS set. He was a really nice guy, and he spent quite a while explaining the system to me. I am working on a few drawings of the rig.

[Snowpetrel]

here are some pics of the rig Joe Davison used. In strong winds the raffee at the top was pulled down and left behind the lower square sail. The flaps could also be folded over the to reduce sail area or for reaching.

[Glenn.Brooks]

If you are short handed anD/or want to avoid going eposides of deep hysteria avoid spinnakers at all costs! As someone else mentioned, try googling Twizzle Rig - twin down wind jibs/genoas set off spin poles, or simpler, pole out one jyb/genoa to one side, furl the main and use the mainboom to pole out the other jyb/genoa on the other side for a wonderful downwind sailing experience.

i just set this up on my Alberg 30 and it works great.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by beau

Square sails were used because they didn't know any better in those days. They believed the wind pushed the boat along.
We now know that it is the low pressure behind the sail that sucks the boat along (airofoil technology)
However I have found that the Oceanic Lateen Triangular Sail may offer the best performance /per sq meter, plus the maximum sail area is high up where the higher wind speed is located.

when sailing down wind, lift is not what moves your boat; drag is. in other words, when sailing down wind, the wind pushes your boat along.

also, they didn't think the world was flat before Columbus sailed to America.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by filaviasail

I understand nobody knows about a kit for this sistem, i know the stress on the mast will be different from a draditional sail, i only serch and want to understand in wich case this sistem can be istalled.

If sombody know of this kit please replay, tanks to all.

Yes, it's called a spinnaker.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

here are some pics of the rig Joe Davison used. In strong winds the raffee at the top was pulled down and left behind the lower square sail. The flaps could also be folded over the to reduce sail area or for reaching.

If memory serves, in an old issue of Latitude 38 (say 15yrs+/- ago), there was an article which went into a good bit of detail on this exact rig. And it made quite a lot of sense really. Plus it included how it was put together in a fair bit of detail.
So it'd be worth trying their online search engine, & or a Google search of their archives. And if that doesn't pan out, pick up the phone.
Sailors are almost happy to help sailors. Though you may have to call a couple of times to find the "right person" to help you.

One other resource where I'm Sure that you can find info on this is www.AYRS.org the Amateur Yacht Research Society. Those guys have researched, built, tested out, & tried All Kinds of wild & cool stuff.
Including gear & ideas going back several centuries.

Plus, it's worth trying the SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising Association). There's enough depth of knowledge there that someone will know.

And I know that Brion Toss has already been mentioned. But also try his upstairs neighbor, Carol Hasse @ Port Townsend Sails. She's definitely in the deep end of the knowledge pool.

Also, I have trouble imagining that you can't find info on this online. As it ain't rocket science... Just keep digging.


BTW, is there some reason that you're averse to a kite (spinnaker, that is). Either conventional, or asym.? I mean Good used ones can be had for CHEAP (snuffers included). As in far less than just the price of the cloth to build this semi-experimental rig.

PS: It'll take more digging. But try some of the major maritime information hubs. Like in Newport, RI for example. Or the Port Townsend Public Library. Their nautical collection is HUGE.

[UNCIVILIZED]

[QUOTE=first wind;2112292]when sailing down wind, lift is not what moves your boat; drag is. in other words, when sailing down wind, the wind pushes your boat along. QUOTE]

Sorry, but this isn't fully correct. Lift is still a big component when sailing downwind.
Ever notice how fast sailboats plane, & some even have fully half or more of their hulls out of the water?. That takes some lift.

The lift component is less if you're going DDW, especially on a heavy/slow boat, but it's still there. And the closer you get to the wind, when sailing downwind/reaching, the bigger the role lift plays in generating power from the sails.

Plus, if you include a fast boat in the math which goes into this, their apparent wind goes so far forward due to their speed, that they reach downwind. So then, lift is the primary factor powering them.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

If you are short handed anD/or want to avoid going eposides of deep hysteria avoid spinnakers at all costs! As someone else mentioned, try googling Twizzle Rig - twin down wind jibs/genoas set off spin poles, or simpler, pole out one jyb/genoa to one side, furl the main and use the mainboom to pole out the other jyb/genoa on the other side for a wonderful downwind sailing experience.

i just set this up on my Alberg 30 and it works great.

Wherein lies the problem with spinnakers? As an asymmetrical, tacked to a short sprit (or the bow), & that has a snuffer, is as easy to handle as any jib. And they're simpler to set up, & handle, than wrestling with a pole for a genoa.
Not that conventional spinnakers are tough to deal with either. They just require a bit of practice; kind of like docking when it's windy. But they're great tools to have.

I'm asking such questions, because I can't see artificially creating & inflating fears about spinnakers as being at all helpful. Plus which, arbitrarily removing them from one's list of options, is like purposefully leaving half of your golf clubs at home, when heading out for a weekend match.