Standing rigging and weather helm on port tack.

[jamhass]

Does this occur in a particular channel or location? Is it a possible current issue such that the apparent direction of the underwater flow (as seen from the boat) is different on the two tacks?

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

It does depend on the boat, and lots of details, but on many boats it is heeling that drives weather helm even more than sail balance. Does the boat heel equally on the two tacks?

If you are going to try to tune the rig yourself, read this book Illustrated Sail and Rig Tuning. Follow the process FROM THE BEGINNING and do not skip any steps.

I see a lot of people talk about "unequal rig tension" here. That is not correct. Unless things are WILDLY out of whack and you mast is bent like a pretzle, the two cap shrouds (for example) pull against each other, so in the absence of wind pressure, the tension in the two shrouds HAVE to be the same! It's the LENGTH that is wrong. Tension tells you absolutely nothing about how the rig is centered.

This is how many people go wrong rigging with using a tension gauge. Pulling one side to full tension then going to tighten the other side will always result in an off center rig.

The boat definitely heels more on the port tack. It goes straight over on to the rail, and its hard to get it to a more reasonable level. This is in any wind more than force 3.

At rest the mast is straight fore and aft, but it does have a slight bend to starboard, maybe an inch or two off centre.

I actually have that book, i will do as you say and start from scratch by following it.
I just needed some more opinions before i made any changes. The amount of variables involved is bewildering.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

It does depend on the boat, and lots of details, but on many boats it is heeling that drives weather helm even more than sail balance. Does the boat heel equally on the two tacks?



If you are going to try to tune the rig yourself, read this book Illustrated Sail and Rig Tuning. Follow the process FROM THE BEGINNING and do not skip any steps.



I see a lot of people talk about "unequal rig tension" here. That is not correct. Unless things are WILDLY out of whack and you mast is bent like a pretzle, the two cap shrouds (for example) pull against each other, so in the absence of wind pressure, the tension in the two shrouds HAVE to be the same! It's the LENGTH that is wrong. Tension tells you absolutely nothing about how the rig is centered.



This is how many people go wrong rigging with using a tension gauge. Pulling one side to full tension then going to tighten the other side will always result in an off center rig.

This! You can have equal tension but a non vertical mast

Doesn’t mean there may be other issues but that is a good place to start

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Greensleeves29

The boat definitely heels more on the port tack. It goes straight over on to the rail, and its hard to get it to a more reasonable level. This is in any wind more than force 3.

At rest the mast is straight fore and aft, but it does have a slight bend to starboard, maybe an inch or two off centre.

That is enough to increase the camber of the sail, which would explain the heeling, and probably everything else.

A good place to start would be to get out the calipers and check the turnbuckles to see if both sides are tensioned to the same distance. Just doing that should make a huge difference, assuming that is your problem.

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by jamhass

Does this occur in a particular channel or location? Is it a possible current issue such that the apparent direction of the underwater flow (as seen from the boat) is different on the two tacks?

Interesting, another thing that had not occurred to me. I sail mostly in the eastern side of the solent, and the tides/currents can be odd.
I think i can rule it out though as the problem is apparent every time i go out sailing.

[a64pilot]

Inch or two measured where? Do as boatie said to measure you can’t go by eye, it will trick you.

Now I don’t pretend any kind of sailor, but I believe you can take your main halyard down to the rail at the aft chainplate and set its length, then take it to the same spot on the other side and mast bend will be apparent by the distance not being equal.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Greensleeves29

Interesting, another thing that had not occurred to me. I sail mostly in the eastern side of the solent, and the tides/currents can be odd.
I think i can rule it out though as the problem is apparent every time i go out sailing.

Yea, but in the Solent it would be highly unlikely to have the same wind, tide and currents each time you sail. So yea, I think not too.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Greensleeves29

The boat definitely heels more on the port tack. It goes straight over on to the rail, and its hard to get it to a more reasonable level. This is in any wind more than force 3.

At rest the mast is straight fore and aft, but it does have a slight bend to starboard, maybe an inch or two off centre.

Bend or lean? Is it the mast or the whole boat?

Does the boat sit square on her lines? This could also be a result of too much weight on one side. Fuel tank, batteries, water,... ? Or a bent/offset keel.

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

That is enough to increase the camber of the sail, which would explain the heeling, and probably everything else.

A good place to start would be to get out the calipers and check the turnbuckles to see if both sides are tensioned to the same distance. Just doing that should make a huge difference, assuming that is your problem.

Ok, I'm going to loosen things off and start from scratch.

Originally Posted by StuM

Bend or lean? Is it the mast or the whole boat?

Does the boat sit square on her lines? This could also be a result of too much weight on one side. Fuel tank, batteries, water,... ? Or a bent/offset keel.

More of a slight bend i think, at the top 1/4 of the mast. I hope the keels ok, it goes straight under motor. and it looked fine out of the water.


I really appreciate all the comments, Thanks everyone.

[boatman61]

The heeling right over with wind ahead of the beam is a trait of the Elizabethan 29.. adds 4ft to the LWL.
They're sailing their best when you see mullet through the porthole..
Welcome to the Elizabethan Owners Association for the Elizabethan 29 Owners Handbook if you don't already have it.

[SVHarmonie]

Originally Posted by StuM

You are correct, sort of.

Tension and length are two faces of the same coin.



If the mast is out of true because of different length shrouds, it will lean and/or bend to one side due to gravity which results in more tension on the long shroud and less tension on the short shroud. Obviously when you "tension" your shrouds you are actually changing their length.

Are you trying to tell me that if the mast tips to one side by 5 degrees (that would be a LOT) you could tell by measuring the tensions in the rig? I don't buy it, and I know it is not true.

If the tension in the shrouds is different because of the weight of the mast due to its tilt, the mast is either at a 40 degree angle to vertical, or the shrouds are so loose they are literally flopping around.

A 5/16" shroud should have an initial static, dockside tension on the order of 1300 lbs. I could hold a mast at a 5 degree angle to vertical with one hand. It is physicaly impossible to have a port side shroud at 1300lbs and its mate on the starboard at 900. Can not happen.

Do the trigonometry.

My point is that you can have a rig with perfect tensions on both cap shrouds AND have the mast way out of plumb. Tension is not the answer to the problem.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

My point is that you can have a rig with perfect tensions on both cap shrouds AND have the mast way out of plumb. Tension is not the answer to the problem.

For sure. I think many of us were starting from the assumption that the mast was not obviously unaligned, as OP has since stated. If it had been aligned, it would not have been unfair to assume a tensioning problem.

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

For sure. I think many of us were starting from the assumption that the mast was not obviously unaligned, as OP has since stated. If it had been aligned, it would not have been unfair to assume a tensioning problem.

Yeah my fault for not mentioning that earlier, I had a hard time believing that such a small discrepancy would have such a large effect on the helm, so previously i have overlooked it.

[singlespeed]

I would suspect an asymmetric rudder blade if it has been occurring for some time. Have any repairs been done on the rudder? You mention a full keel, any visible repairs to it. Even a slight longevity over the length can lead to weather helm.

[Hermia II]

The amount of lee helm could be dependent on the rake of the mast. If it is too far aft, the amount will increase and vice versa.
To get it even on both tacks try:
1. Check the tension of upper and lower shrouds. Manually should be fine. That should bring the lee helm to equal on both tacks. If too much on both tacks, move mast top forward.
2. There's a risk it could be the boat. Check the leeward shrouds when close hauled. They could slack, especially on a wooden boat (is it?), but it should be equal on both tacks. If the tension was equal to start with and slack is un-even on the different tacks, something is flexing in the hull. It could be the stanchions, the mast step or even the keel.
There should be no magic in this.