Standing rigging and weather helm on port tack.

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Once you've got you little problem sorted, you should be able to stand in the cockpit with the tiller twixt your legs and, using your hands on the sheets, make her do a veritable dance.

I really hope so, on the starboard tack she is sublime. I can tie to the tiller a bit of elastic and she will weave her way on a steady course. But on the port tack the tiller needs quite some force, and constant attention. It is a Jekyll and Hyde like complete change of character.

Thanks for your words, they are a pleasure to read.

[LittleWing77]

This is one of the weirdest problems I've ever heard of with a sailboat.

I'm fascinated to hear what it turns out to be!

Please ensure you come back to us with the solution to this puzzle.

GOOD LUCK!
LittleWing77

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

This is one of the weirdest problems I've ever heard of with a sailboat.

I'm fascinated to hear what it turns out to be!

Please ensure you come back to us with the solution to this puzzle.

GOOD LUCK!
LittleWing77

Could be only the mast alignment, a small difference can change the balance and the shape of the sails. But yea, I had never thought it could make such a big difference, but let's hope for his sake that tthat is all it is.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Could be only the mast alignment, a small difference can change the balance and the shape of the sails. But yea, I had never thought it could make such a big difference, but let's hope for his sake that that is all it is.

Yes. I did get quite a chill when someone suggested a soft hull - and applying engineered internal reinforcement...

Please, no!

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Yes. I did get quite a chill when someone suggested a soft hull - and applying engineered internal reinforcement...

Please, no!

Yea, I suggested it might be, but my advice was to not sail if he thought so - reinforcements won't fix the damage that caused it, just hide the effects.

[Greensleeves29]

I went down to the boat today. It was very windy so i could not do anything with the rigging, but i did pay some attention to the tabernacle (I probably should have mentioned that it has one at the start.) And i think what i found may have a bearing on the rest of the rig.

The whole tabernacle setup does not make much sense, All the forces appear to be taken by the pivot, The pivot is a 1inch stainless bar with threaded ends, quite beefy but from what i understand the forces should go through the bottom of the mast to the deck.
The Tabernacle.
https://imgur.com/a/Uhdidu6

The pivot.
https://imgur.com/a/XbekxRF

The hole in the tabernacle for the pivot is not slotted, and there is only a maximum of 16mm clearance under the mast. This means that the mast would not be able to pivot, as it would not clear the base of the tabernacle. Why someone would go through all the effort of making a tabernacle and then not have it function like a tabernacle, i do not know.
At the bottom of the mast, there is a cast aluminium plug, this is not horizontal to the tabernacle base. The internal width of the tabernacle is 100mm but the mast is 90mm wide. There appears to be a bushing through the mast(at the pivot point), protruding by a few mm on each side.
The gap between the mast and the tabernacle sides is not equal, this could be the tabernacle sides being pulled in by the pivot bolt(The sides are 8mm thick). Or perhaps shows that the mast is leaning.
Gap under mast.
https://imgur.com/a/NHmz2mV

At the moment my thoughts are:
1) Loosen off the rigging.
2) Get a wedge under the mast to take the weight.
3) Pack the sides equally.
4) Then re tighten the rigging.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thanks

[TrentePieds]

Greensleeves,

Yes, what you depict is a sloppy retrofit, methinks! I doubt very much that the boat came from the yard with a tabernacle. Must be a previous owner's "improvements" :-)

It was common back when the E29 was designed to keep the heel of the mast out of the accommodations because the accommodations were so small to begin with. The mast compression was often taken by a mast step consisting of a weldment that spanned the fore'n'aft distance twixt the two bulkheads that enclose the toilet room, the one forming the aft bulkhead of the forepeak and the other forming the forrard bulkhead of the saloon. These bulkheads, in turn, took the forces to the hull casting, or, in wooden boats, via the framing ultimately to the keelson.

The weldment had cheeks that rose something like three inches above the deck and they were a snug fit around the mast profile. Often, back when the E29 was first built, the stick would still be wooden, although that time was a transition time when ally extrusions were becoming available.

Whether the stick was wood or ally, its butt end stepped on the bottom of the weldment and the cheeks of the weldment were snug to the sides of the stick. The mast was not meant to pivot at all, although it was held in place fore'n'aft by means of a thwartships pin or bolt. The pin was not meant to be a pivot by any means, but simply a locator. I always thought that the fact that the weldment was drilled for three or four possible positions for the pin was meant to facilitate shifting the CE fore'n'aft as a means of perfecting the balance of the boat.

I would think that there are enuff geriatric designs around the Solent that you can sneak up on one of them and have a look at how it was done :-)

Given that the boat is a lovely boat, and given that the existing tabernacle is so - uhmm - gross, you might like to spend a few quid on bringing the stepping of the mast back to what Kim Holman intended.

Cheers
TrentePieds

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Inch or two measured where? Do as boatie said to measure you can’t go by eye, it will trick you.

Now I don’t pretend any kind of sailor, but I believe you can take your main halyard down to the rail at the aft chainplate and set its length, then take it to the same spot on the other side and mast bend will be apparent by the distance not being equal.

Except the halyard sheave is also (probably) off center. That could make an inch difference. When I check mine I clip a shackle to the backstay (you could use the headstay if you don't have a furler) and attatch a tape measure or other measuring line to that. Run the shackle up to the truck on a halyard and it should be dead center. Measure to the same point on each side and you should get equal numbers. Note that you don't know for sure that anything is at the same place on each side, verify that first by measuring from the base of the headstay to each chainplate, stanchion, or whatever you're going to measure the mast from. (I learned that on my old home built boat, she didn't come out exactly symmetrical).

[markiobe]

This is not to dispute the posts that suggest you check the rig, but my guess would be that you have an asymmetry in the hull somewhere...

[sailorladd]

It sounds like an extreme case of rigging misalignment, not sure if it could be this much out, but worth taking your main halyard and placing it off the mast on your toe rail just so it touches, and then to the starboard rail opposite and see what measurement it is, to ascertain that your mast is perpendicular to the boat ...if it is ...we have a problem Huston, and for the likes of me I'm not sure what it is... Is your rudden faired evenly on both sides? Is your keel aligned fore and aft? is it also faired evenly with each side?? Some questions I would be asking..

[Bill.Gladstone]

There's asymmetry somewhere. It may be underbody - keel or rudder.

[Greensleeves29]

I checked the mast using the halyard method, down to the cap shroud u-bolt. And there was a 3" difference side to side. Is this significant amount? I am not sure how to use that figure to work out how far the mast was leaning at the top.

I then straightened the mast by loosening the starboard cap shroud a turn then tightening the port cap shroud a turn, i think it was about 3 turns to straighten the mast side to side. I then used the main halyard, tied tight, to sight up the mast to check or any bend. And as far as i can tell there isn't any. And the mast is vertical fore'n'aft.

I tried to test the boat then and there, but the wind was too light.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Given that the boat is a lovely boat, and given that the existing tabernacle is so - uhmm - gross, you might like to spend a few quid on bringing the stepping of the mast back to what Kim Holman intended.

Cheers
TrentePieds

I think i understand your description of the original design, and it is now clear to me that the tabernacle is not right.

But i am very keen to sail, i have been teaching myself and with this problem it has often been frustrating. I would like to sort this out as best i can, and sail for the rest of the summer, then i will be pulling her out of the water for work. I imagine it is quite a fall from grace for a boat like this to end up in my hands, but at some point i will spend some time and money making her nice again.

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

Is your rudden faired evenly on both sides? Is your keel aligned fore and aft? is it also faired evenly with each side?? Some questions I would be asking..

I assumed a lot when i bought the boat and did not think to check these things. But i believe the hull was fair, it had been epoxied at some point in the past if that makes any difference, the PO, who did not sail much by the sound of it(first warning should have been there) had recently taken the rudder off to replace the bearings and the bottom rudder gudgeon(not sure if that is the correct term). That is all i can remember.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I imagine it is quite a fall from grace for a boat like this to end up in my hands, but at some point i will spend some time and money making her nice again."

On the contrary, Greensleeves! I think she is a lucky boat to have ended up in your hands :-)!

Yes, 3 inches IS significant.

You speak of a "U-bolt" on the cap shroud. That sounds like another kluge like the tabernacle. There should be no such thing as a "U-bolt" there. What there should be is a "chain plate" to which a turnbuckle is attached. There are different types of turnbuckles and sizes, of course. For the type and size of turnbuckle appropriate for the cap shroud on a Lizzie I would expect to pay sixty or seventy quid, so your PO [who obviously fancied himself an engineer :-)] might well have "cheaped out" on lots of other gear.

Could you post a pic of the way your shrouds (all six of them) are attached to the hull?

Is your stick wooden or is it an ally extrusion?

Is there room twixt stick and cheek of tabernacle to drive in a wedge in the fore'n'aft direction? You say the gaps on each side are not equal. That in itself is NOT terribly significant given that the whole tabernacle is a kluge. What IS significant is that the fore'n'aft vertical centre plane of the mast itself should coincide precisely with the fore'n'aft vertical centre plane of the hull itself. You may have to shift the heel of the mast from side to side to achieve that. Wedges will do that job for you for now.

Yes, the bottom fitting on the hull, the one that takes the end of the rudder stock is a "gudgeon". Given the design of Lizzie's hull, it, itself, cannot possibly have gone out of symmetry. The gudgeon cannot have been displaced enuff to make a difference. Even if the rudder itself had been inexpertly repaired, that is NOT likely to be your problem. If you are motoring along and let go the tiller, the rudder will simply trail behind at whatever deflection equalizes the forces on each side of it. Jim was right in pulling me up for having forgotten that you said that when motoring you don't get the asymmetry of steering. Since you don't, your rudder is not the problem.

Be of good cheer. We'll help you along as long as you need us :-)

TrentePieds

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

You speak of a "U-bolt" on the cap shroud. That sounds like another kluge like the tabernacle. There should be no such thing as a "U-bolt" there. What there should be is a "chain plate" to which a turnbuckle is attached. There are different types of turnbuckles and sizes, of course.

Could you post a pic of the way your shrouds (all six of them) are attached to the hull?

Is your stick wooden or is it an ally extrusion?

Thanks TrentePieds

The shrouds are attached via swaged fittings to 3/8 Bronze Sta-Lok turnbuckles and then u-bolts fitted on the deck. I do not think think they used chainplates on the Elizabethan 29. I do not have a photo a the moment, but this picture below is a similar setup to what i have.

https://corribee.files.wordpress.com...6/untitled.jpg

The mast is ally and i think it is original. There is an unequal gap side to side between the lower cheeks of the tabernacle, not fore'n'aft. This gap closes up at the pivot bolt.
I will try and get this gap equal and then shim it. I probably should not assume that the cheeks of the tabernacle are plumb, but the bottom of the mast probably should be fixed in one place. Also i think there should be a shim under the mast to take to load off the pivot bolt.

The next chance i get i will make these changes and try her out in light winds.