Standing rigging: why no part in rigg has production date stamped as age is important

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Why is there no production date stamped on the turnbuckles and all other hardware like terminals?
Why is it not mandatory that a swage fitting carries a date when its swaged to the SS wire.
Nearly every product on the market worldwide needs a kind of indentification like production date or serial number but on rigging nothing...
If thats so important that standing rigg is not older then 15years and you have no x-ray vision.

How do you really known how old the rigg really is if you didn't own the boat for 10years or more...a fake rigger bill for a new rigg is easy to get or made yourself with fotoshop...

Interesting you should ask.. I'm actually currently looking into laser engravers so I can put serial #'s on our rigging packages. Haven't pulled the trigger yet, but will do soon.

[chrisr]

no question that "a fake rigger bill for a new rigg is easy to get or made yourself with fotoshop" (btw, its photoshop)

however while this might satisfy an insurer at time a policy is taken out, don't you think that in the event of a claim they will contact the rigger concerned to check ?

in such case you will not only have a claim disallowed but find yourself in court for attempted fraud

not many folk will take the risk i think

personally i'm happy with a paper trail...although a service tag similar to eg fire extinguisher might be a cost effective alternative

cheers,

[Madehn]

Oh yes another govt regulation sign me up!!!! The answer as to why it isn’t there is because it isn’t needed. How many people do you know that have had a rig come down? Solving for a solution to a problem that really doesn’t need solving. Present system seems to work. If you are concerned about your rig then have it inspected or replaced. Your boat your risk your decision. Also putting manufacture dates won’t work. What about the turnbuckle that sits on a warehouse shelf for three years before being installed? Make riggers stamp parts? Seems like a paper invoice serves the same purpose with less hassle/ cost. The parts on nuclear subs can be literally traced back to batches of metal at foundries but those vessels tend to cost a bit more than my boat. Seriously anything that adds complexity and cost for dubious returns I want no part of. JMHO. Rant over. 😀😀😀

[Jim Cate]

^^^

Yep, gotta agree with this. A whole new bureaucracy to support, all to solve (?) a very minor problem.

Jim

[Fuss]

Just for info...
A few months back a mast came down after the standing rigging had been replaced. I spoke to the owner. I think he said it was replaced 8 months back. I said that this does not look like new rigging to me. No-one knew why this happened. The official thought was that the rig was over tensioned. However the terminals were rusty and split. Yes, split, not cracked, split. I find it very interesting that rig over tensioned was the official statement as to me it looked like the terminals were made of the wrong material...however I am no rigging expert. large splits and rusty and supposedly 8 months old. This cannot be a correct analysis.

[psk125]

A date stamp showing when a piece of rigging material was made is not going to be helpful if it isn't installed immediately. Who knows how long a turnbuckle or swage sits around before being actually being put onto a boat? Two years? Six? Others have pointed out how usage and wear can vary, making age immaterial. As Fuss mentions, even new gear, poorly made, can fail almost immediately. A date stamp might be helpful in some cases, but it is not a panacea or even that helpful.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by fregata

I would guess most rigs go down in open water with nobody around. The damage is limited to your boat and the people on it.



A bad lithium battery install is just as likely if not more likely to blow up on a crowded dock. Or worse still, during lay up when boats are packed in the yard like sardines.



You can appreciate which of these scenarios is less favorable to an insurer.

Actually, that's completely false.
A 25-year-old rig is a bigger insurance risk than a drop-in DIY LFP battery.
I wouldn't be surprised if a 5-year-old rig is a bigger insurance risk than a drop in DIY lfp battery.
I know of people who have lost rigs. Personally. There isn't even anecdotal evidence to support insurance risk for lfp batteries.
And I think Captain Rivet is absolutely spot on. I am pretty sure the rig on my last boat was installed in 1979 when the boat was built, and I am pretty sure that same rig was on the boat when I sold it in 2020. But since I only had the boat for 10 years, I'm talking through my hat. Sure would be nice to really know the answer.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by psk125

A date stamp showing when a piece of rigging material was made is not going to be helpful if it isn't installed immediately. Who knows how long a turnbuckle or swage sits around before being actually being put onto a boat? Two years? Six? Others have pointed out how usage and wear can vary, making age immaterial. As Fuss mentions, even new gear, poorly made, can fail almost immediately. A date stamp might be helpful in some cases, but it is not a panacea or even that helpful.

I agree, a little. A date stamp on a turnbuckle is silly. But a date stamp on a wire swage after it is made is quite useful. It would have to be made after the swage was installed (the swaging process would destroy any thing on the surface). I don't know of anybody who makes rigging wires to length and then lets them sit for years... but I guess it is possible?

Now, just because it a useful idea doesn't mean that anybody should be REQUIRED to do it.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Just for info...
A few months back a mast came down after the standing rigging had been replaced. I spoke to the owner. I think he said it was replaced 8 months back. I said that this does not look like new rigging to me. No-one knew why this happened. The official thought was that the rig was over tensioned. However the terminals were rusty and split. Yes, split, not cracked, split. I find it very interesting that rig over tensioned was the official statement as to me it looked like the terminals were made of the wrong material...however I am no rigging expert. large splits and rusty and supposedly 8 months old. This cannot be a correct analysis.

Sounds like inferior quality rigging fittings were used. Or low quality wire.
Or a bad swage machine.

[chrisr]

how would you date stamp dyneema ???

cheers,

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by chrisr

how would you date stamp dyneema ???

cheers,

Easy enough to stamp the fittings. Then re-stamp with a new date when it gets replaced.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by chrisr

no question that "a fake rigger bill for a new rigg is easy to get or made yourself with fotoshop" (btw, its photoshop)

however while this might satisfy an insurer at time a policy is taken out, don't you think that in the event of a claim they will contact the rigger concerned to check ?

in such case you will not only have a claim disallowed but find yourself in court for attempted fraud

not many folk will take the risk i think

personally i'm happy with a paper trail...although a service tag similar to eg fire extinguisher might be a cost effective alternative

cheers,

Worked in insurance claims worldwide since 30 Years in senior management...you won't believe what people do, what slips trough and how things can be done. I reorganised claims worldwide at Allianz, had also extensive fraud education.


Nothing happens to a rigger that inspected a rigg that came down 2 month later...its a visual check and you have no xray vision, tons of excuses to get out of any liability. Can give you 5 riggers in canaries that testify you everything you want...but non i would trust to do my rig new
And yes they may pick up the phone if insurance calls or writes, maybe no...you have no obligation to answer an insurance request, epsecially if from another country...
photoshop a bill is easliy done too, take a rigger that went out of business and you are good, mast is at bottom of ocean and you have full comprehensive coverage means insurance have to proof...
But because they pay time value, you are lucky if your 20 years mast came down, you get half of damage paid...not a good deal.

but this thread shouldn't be how you cannot do it or cheat around.

its an important and expensive And not all new owner know how old rig is or how you can determine it.
Mandatory in marine will hardly work ...
I was just surprised all is so regulated but eg quality rigger don't do that to just proof their work and seperate it from the low quality crowd.

@yachtrigger: yes go for it. I would pay the addon and can then easly proof to new owner or insurance, no paper hassle and unsecurity anymore.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

I agree, a little. A date stamp on a turnbuckle is silly. But a date stamp on a wire swage after it is made is quite useful. It would have to be made after the swage was installed (the swaging process would destroy any thing on the surface). I don't know of anybody who makes rigging wires to length and then lets them sit for years... but I guess it is possible?

Now, just because it a useful idea doesn't mean that anybody should be REQUIRED to do it.

not a time stamp,

put a serial number and manufacturer on it, with that you can figure out the lot when it was produced.
and yes why not laser a year+your logo on every bigger piece of the rig you install on a boat or the manufactuerer do that in production.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^

Yep, gotta agree with this. A whole new bureaucracy to support, all to solve (?) a very minor problem.

Jim

it actually means much less bureaucracy and also much less fraud.
put a serial number on the rig pieces and you can very simple identify everything without.
Also makes fraud much harder...

[Adelie]

Hardware can sit on a shelf for years at a time before being installed.
Nobody is going to throw away hardware that has been sitting in stock unused. If buyers are sitting thru stock for most recent manufacture, oldest stock never moves and gets older.

If no dates then stuff gets bought randomly.