Staysail on Furler?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Hi,

Ours came from Hasselfors which today is Selden. I seen very, very similar ones at SVB:

Babystay Release / Slip Hook from 4,50 € - SVB

(svb / shop / babystay release / slip hook)

'This what you want?

Cheers,
b.

That's it! Called riggers and chandlers all around the states and could not find one of these anywhere. They were of course very happy to sell me much more complicated, more expensive, (and in my opinion) less convenient options but no pelican hook.

Thanks
Skip

[Eleven]

I used my staysail all the time, first up, last down, changed to a storm stay as the reefs start to go in.
It's not big enough to worry about in a squall and will probably rip out if the bad weather goes ballistic. Too late to go on deck for the sake of a hundred quids worth of sail anyway.
The real plus is the boat with a staysail only will maintain adequate steerage way until the wind decides to relent enough to get out there and reset jib and main.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

I find it surprising that you can use roller reefing with a hyfield lever; certainly the roller reefing could not use an aluminum extrusion and the result would be, I suspect, a pretty loose luff.

t.

Brad

G'Day Brad,

Perhaps you were referring to my post... we DO have a furler with an aluminium foil, we DO have it mounted on a Highfield lever, the luff is as tight as any Solent stay luff is, and we DO sometimes remove it to make tacking the genoa possible without rolling it up.

The Solent rig is not an ideal setup, but we have found that having the staysail (if that is what it should properly be called) on a roller is a worthwhile advantage.

My post was an offer to Greg to show him how we set it up.

Jim

[Sabbatical II]

So far, al the posts have been interesting but maybe if I'd given a bit more information it would have been helpful.

The boat is a new build semi-cutom 42'. It is a masthead rig with a 135% genoa of 54 sq m, a main of 36 sq m and the inner foretay attatches at the top spreaders giving the staysail an area of 5.2 sq m. The staysail has a track in front of the mast to make it all self tending. I am toying with the idea of making the inner forestay removable so that I can add maybe a 95% jib on the headstay sheeted back to the self tacking track for when I am inshore in busy harbours like Sydney and Pittwater. Any comments now with a bit more information?? Oh, and 5.2 sq m seems incredibly small - would that suffice for a storm jib anyway?

Greg

[Sabbatical II]

Jim

I'll look forward to discussing this with you in person in a few days. I have alerted my spotters (parents) who live in the block of units beside the Swansea bridge.

Greg

[estarzinger]

First, I agree with your desire to move the innerstay back to the mast - it makes the boat much handier for sailing in coastal/tight quarters.

There are two 'modern' ways that this is commonly done:

1. Using a dyneema (usually Dynex Dux) rope for the stay, with hank on staysails (usually soft hanks but bronze hanks will in fact not eat the dux rope), with either a turnbuckle or a tackle at the bottom of the stay to tension it. The dyneema stay is nice because when you bring it back to the mast it is soft and will not bang on the mast. Some people will leave the staysail hanked on when moving the stay back to the mast.

2. Using a staysail with a dyneema rope luff set on a 'free luff' continuously line furler, hoisted and tensioned with a 2:1 halyard (and perhaps a tackle on the bottom to get extra stay tension). This does give you the 'roll in/roll out' simplicity, and removes the stay entirely when you don't want it.

It is possible to make a conventional furler removable. The only trick is that the drum needs to be somewhat higher off the deck than normal, so when you bring it back to the mast it will just reach the deck and you don't kink the furler foil. If you did that I would think you would want to leave the sail on the stay when you brought the stay back to the mast to cushion the furler foil from banging on the mast - so that's going to leave weight and windage aloft (Which the two 'modern' options avoid).

That does seem a truly tiny storm jib. What's the height of your rig? The orc cat 1 standard for storm jib area is 5% of the foretriangle height squared. My storm jib is 14% the area of the main plus 105% jib, yours is half that size. And that's a decently small storm jib that only gets pulled out when the wind is over 40kts - I have a bigger (35% bigger) staysail that sees more use in 30kts sort of conditions. So, if that's really your staysail size I don't think it will see much use and I would not go to the hassle of a removable conventional furler for it.

[Sabbatical II]

All right I've just done the maths & it would seem to me that the figures supplied to me for the staysail size cannot be correct. Apologies to every one. The mast will be approx 15.5m above the deck and the inner forestsay is about 3 metres forward of the self tacking track which sits just in front of the mast. This would mean that the staysail height is likely to be about 10m since the stay comes from the height of the top spreaders. Simply geometry means that this would be closer to 15 sq m than 5 sq m. and maybe there shoud have been a "1" in front of the 5 on my paperwork. Does this sound more likely ?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

Simply geometry means that this would be closer to 15 sq m than 5 sq m. Does this sound more likely ?

15sq m would be a nice useful size staysail.

The required maximum ORC storm jib size would be 5% x 15.5^2 = 12 sq m with a max luff length of 65% x 15.5 = 10m.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day Evans,

I noted your earlier comment about using bronze hanks on a Dux stay. Did you do anything special to them -- polishing or reshaping the wearing surfaces -- or just bang them on? I would never have had the nerve to try this, but with your success I might just give it a try!

FWIW, we're slowly moving to some use of Dyneema -- lifelines, baby stay and runners -- and really like working with this material. With the increasing difficulty of sourcing top quality stainless wire, the attraction grows stronger!

Cheers,

Jim

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

bronze hanks Did you do anything special to them -- polishing or reshaping the wearing surfaces

FWIW, we're slowly moving to some use of Dyneema -- lifelines, baby stay and runners -- and really like working with this material.

I did nothing special to them, but the hanks were 'polished' by prior use on a wire stay so any sharp edge mold flashing would have been knocked down.

Yes, dyneema is terrific stuff. I used to use a harken HT shackle for my mainsail clew and the stainless used to wear - I switched to a dyneema lashing and it does not seem to wear or chafe at all.

My only concern with the stuff is heat guns - the melting temp is not very high - I shrink wrapped the boat this winter for the first time and had guys waving around big propane fired heat guns to do the shrinking - need to be careful with the dyneema life lines. But a smart cruiser will spend the winter in the tropics and not have to worry about shrink wrapping

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

I find it surprising that you can use roller reefing with a hyfield lever; certainly the roller reefing could not use an aluminum extrusion and the result would be, I suspect, a pretty loose luff.

Personally, I would go with either the Hyfield lever and a hank-on with a reef (essentially a 'Solent' rig); or eliminate the lever and use roller furling. I have had both and, while I enjoyed the lever and the ability to keep the foredeck unobstructed for tacks of the headsail in most conditions, I vastly prefer roller reefing: when things get nasty if so nice to be able to furl up the headsail, unfurl the staysail and, if necessary reef it to a storm jib from the safety of the cockpit.

Brad

I have a Harken Cruising Unit 1 roller furling system for my staysail and it is plenty tight enough. The stay is locked to the deck with a highfield lever. The whole boat shudders when I release it. I have to be sure the backstay and runners are both off when I do it or the lever won't budge.

The drum is about 2 ft above the deck with a turnbuckle directly below it, then a roll swage, then an S hook.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

2. Using a staysail with a dyneema rope luff set on a 'free luff' continuously line furler, hoisted and tensioned with a 2:1 halyard (and perhaps a tackle on the bottom to get extra stay tension). This does give you the 'roll in/roll out' simplicity, and removes the stay entirely when you don't want it.

Evans, do you mean here that a staysail can be rigged similar to the Dyneema luff Code Zero types on furler way out in front?

I must say I've never seen that. I might consider it with a long J measurement sloop to make a "quasi-cutter", but not where I already have a more or less 7/8ths staysail stay on a masthead rigged cutter with the mast pretty much at the 50% LOA point. For this, I prefer a big hank-on staysail...and a much less big, reinforced storm staysail...in bad conditions balanced with a trysail, and both sheeted nearly flat.

On my boat, that would give minimal way on, but still allow proper control and steerage. At that stage, it's about staying more or less put safely, not actually going anywhere.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Evans, do you mean here that a staysail can be rigged similar to the Dyneema luff Code Zero types on furler?

Yes, exactly. It's quite common on the current crop of single/short handed race boats. Below is a pic I took of a new launch in LA Ciotat (france). You can see the staysail furler, with 3:1 tackle underneath for tensinning the luff. This line leads bak to a winch thru a spinlock ZS jammer with remote trip line.

I prefer a big hank-on staysail...and a much less big, reinforced storm staysail.

That's our preference also - dead simple with little to go wrong. BUT, the above zero furler solution does offer the 'roll sail in and out from the cockpit' ease of handling, and you can carry two (or more) different size furling sails to use with the one furler - just lash them to the hand grips on deck and when you get ready to hoist hook up whichever one you want up.

.....

[S/V Alchemy]

Thanks, I suppose having two sails for one furler in that size means you can load it up "downstairs" and not on deck, which might be quieter and tidier.